DC Boards Postings--Was Gilda Irrational or Was She Holiday?
Part 2
Vacuumboy9
I was asked by some folks to start this topic anew, since the four pages on the old "Was Gilda Irrational" topic are a little daunting and might turn off old readers.
So here it is, fresh and new to better encourage new debaters to join in, the question we all asked ourselves when we finished reading TLH for the first time:
Is this lady nuts or what?
Some people believe her. The Wizard staff certainly did and in their short sidebar on TLH back in issue 77, they put forth their theory that Gilda did the first three and Alberto did the rest.
I disagree.
I am one of a few folks who think that Gilda was off her rocker, and that alberto did them all. I see no real evidence to support what she said to herself in the end of issue 13.
Feel free to disagree. That's what this topic is here for.
But I do have a couple rules I'm going to enforce upon you all:
Keep this subject restricted to this topic. A lot of posters here prefer to not have this argument spill over into every other topic. So if you want to put forth your theory that MILOS was Holiday and he faked his death and has been impersonating alberto all this time, then do it HERE.
Keep it clean. No calling people morons for having a belief different than yours. We're trying to engage in intelligent debate here.
And always remember this: This comic is a piece of literature. It can be interpreted many ways. And Jeph has posted on this board that he wants to leave the ending open to whatever interpretation we feel like having, even if it's not what HE thinks.
So, here you go. Enjoy.
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Dan Dreiberg
One literary reason that I believe Albert did not become Holiday until 2/14 is because it is his birthday. Thus, Holiday and Albert were born on the same day. The significance of Albert's birthday is reduced if he became Holiday on Halloween.
I believe in Gilda.
I believe Gilda's explanation of her own Holiday activities on Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas. These were all "night before" killings because as a wife, Gilda had a place to be on those holidays. She could only take advantage of Harvey's absences.
Where Gilda is wrong is her presumption that Harvey took up the Holiday mantle on New Year's.
New Year's is only a week after Christmas so it seems likely that Gilda was not planning another killing right away. Maybe she was waiting for Martin Luther King Day, or Valentine's Day, or just wanted a new start in the New Year.
The glitch for me has always been: since Alberto did not know who Holiday really was, how could he be sure that he could effectively take up the killer's mantle without interference? Maybe he just didn't care.
Or maybe he faked his death and spent six weeks skulking around and realized that there was no other Holiday killing on New Year's. Then he took his shot on 2-14 and when there was not a double Holiday killing he figured he was home-free.
I also don't think Gilda was completely irrational because that would be a very hamfisted ending to a good story by a great writer. Why have a character admit to a series of killings in the final pages of a story if we are to completely dismiss her testimony? It seems like a cheap trick designed to confuse.
I have a suggestion for anti-Gildans: try rereading the story from the point of view that Gilda is the first Holiday and Harvey comes to figure this out even as Gilda thinks he is the second Holiday. It gives a poignancy to their scenes that in my mind justifies my belief that she is the first Holiday.
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muthmaniac
I think this is one of the best controversies concerning TLH. I am a believer that Gilda didn't do any of the killings, but Dan comes up with good points. I like the night before thing. Unfortunately, the main reason I don't think Gilda could have done the murders is because of the very first killing. I can not believe that someone that doesn't know that much about this stuff can sneak into a crime lord's house undetected, cap a guy in a bathroom, to which she would have had to wandered to find, then geet back out again without anyone seeing her.
I do have to say though I don't know whether I believe Harvey did any killings. He was certainly actiing shady throughout the story.
Well, that is all I have for now.
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Cael
Okay, IMO Two-Face was right when he said (he thought) there were two holiday murderers. He meant himself and Gilda. Being as TLH was the story of Harvey's descent into madness, I think it would be highly plausible that he'd be killing gangsters before the acid attack. Also, did you notice that in TLH his killings (the ones we saw, anyway) were more vigilante-style. At the moment he has more a warped idea of right and wrong than a clearly defined 'good Harvey' and 'evil Harvey'.
* I think Gilda killed Johnny. Her brutal slaying of five lowlife thugs (the Irish) seems implausible given that she was in hospital, but hey, this is Gotham, right? And as she said, she killed Milos too.
* No-one killed Alberto, but was he shot at by the real Holiday, or was it all an elaborate hoax? Batman suspected the latter and I'm with him. If it was Holiday, it seems odd that Holiday would have access to a glass of champagne and some streamers after climbing aboard from a boat, but still...
* The rest were Harvey, but as I said before I don't think Carla counts as a Holiday slaying as Carmine's birthday is not technically a holiday, and there was no souvinir, so the MO is completely off. Ditto Alberto on Labor Day and Carmine on Halloween.
* There may be some evidence for all this in the left hand/right hand thing (I don't have a copy of TLH at hand!)
* Why not kill the Riddler? Because it is a riddle? Because Riddler knew that Alberto was alive, which is what he meant when he answered 'Carmine Falcone'. I've no idea.
* In the novel 'Crime and Punishment', soon after the murder someone who was not the murdered came forth and confessed, for infamy or insanity (I can't remember). Just like Alberto and the chapter headings of #1 and #13?
* Lastly, if anyone's insane, a great candidate is Alberto, who was found to be so by Gotham's best (crooked?) headshrinkers.
So yes, I think Gilda was briefly Holiday.
Cael
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Vacuumboy9
Sorry, but I Gotta correct Dan about something. Thanksgiving was not a night before killing. It occured on Thanksgiving day itself. (Remember the page on which Jim goes home to cold dinner and Bats takes Solly some food? I even think the 1st caption on the 1st ppage read "Thanksgiving in Gotham.")
I really like the point Dan makes about the glitch involving Alberto faking his death. If Holiday had chosen to strike that night (as I'm sure he would've--MLK day is not as big a deal as New Year's), there would've been two killings--interesting to think about
I don't think it's "hamfisted" at all--it shows how low Harvey has sunk--his wife is in the process of MOVING OUT, remember, and she's rambling about a reconciliation? Come on! It's not going to happen, and we all know it, and that scene shows just how sad Gilda's life is going to be and how messed up Harvey's will be
Muthmaniac's point about Johnny Viti's death is good--only someone who KNEW their way around that house would have been able to pull it off (and Alberto certaily would have known his way around his cousin's house)
And finally I think I'll close with a quote from DeForgeo--"Wanting your husband to behome before midnight is an awful odd reason to start killing people."
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Killer Smile
If Alberto was, in fact, the only Holiday...
Why did he deviate from the pattern?
Alberto was slavish to the Holiday rule...but JOHNNY VITI DIED BEFORE HALLOWEEN. DAYS BEFORE.
The Dent's house blew up on Halloween. Viti's murder was before this by at least 24 hours, probably more. The night before Halloween is only a holiday to nuts in Detroit(Jeph knows what I mean).
Gilda was Holiday. The only one that counts, I think. Alberto is just a sucka'.
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Vacuumboy9
Johnny Viti DID die on Halloween. All the events of the last ten pages or so of issue one of TLH were on Halloween. Johnny Viti wakes up in the morning, decides to celan himself up, gets shot in the bathtub. That night Jim, Harvey and Bats discuss the murder in Jim's office. Bats discovers Cats eavesdropping. she tells him about the dough stashed on the waterfront. Bats and Harvey go burn it (All... that... money!) Harvey goes home to help Gilda with the trick-or-treaters. Their house blows up.
All on Halloween.
Later issues refer to the murder as occuring on Halloween. The best example I can think ogfis Carmine yelling at Bats in the Labor Day issue, he actually calls the past year "THE LONG HALLOWEEN" because the first murder occured on that day.
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muthmaniac
Ok just for the sake of some of you (as vacuumboy would put it) Gildaists, lets say Gilda did indeed commit the first murders. One, besides the point that I have mentioned before, about the whole getting in and out of the house for the Johnny Viti murder, why? Why, of all the known criminals or gangsters, why Johnny Viti. He was all set to testify against his uncle, until he found out that the Roman wanted him dead for the deed. Hell, I would cop out to if I would die!!
Secondly, just because your a little cuckoo, as she obviously was, reading a couple of files isn't going to make you a marksman. A woman, who presumably has never fired a gun before is not likely to crack a door open and cap a guy perfectly with two shots. (Oh and something that has always bothered me about the whole nipple thing. Wouldn't it go back to the normal sound after the first shot. This just makes sense to me, of course I have no knowledge of firing a gun, but, oh who cares!)
As it has been pointed it out plenty of times the first person is always the hardest to kill. So I don't buy the whole Gilda thing for Johnny Viti.
Next, for the Irish Gang, once again there is the getting around unnoticed thing. First of all she is going to have to try and get past Harvey who is sitting feet away from her. Then there is the whole taking the I.V. out of her arm, then getting out of the bed, which if you look at the page of her room in the hospital, it is surrounded by stuff that would make some kind of noise.
And then there is the actual getting out of the hospital. Now, maybe this is just me but if I was the city's DA I would have police security over my wifes' room, especially after an assassination attempt. I would want her as safe as possible. Plus the staff at the hospital would surely be keeping their eyes on the room since Harvey was seemingly there way past actual visiting hours. So, once again I don't see how Gilda is doing these murders, especially in the condition she was in, being blown up and all.
Then, for the christmas killing of Milos, the body guard. He is killed right after the Joker leaves the Roman's room. Now, I realize that there was probably quite a bit of time between when Joker left the dent's to when he was thrwing the cards at Milos. So Gilda would have had time to get to the place. But, once again how is she escaping the people around her. Does anyone actually believe that after just being released from the hospital, Harvey is just going to let her go out for groceries let alone to kill a man.
Now these are just my assumptions, but then again this whole message board is just all of our assumptions, what I am basically trying to say is, I am done.
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muthmaniac
For some reason I like to keep rambling on about this.
First of all, before I get started I would like to call upan old post by Mr. Jeph Loeb himself. He said that who the killer was is in the story. Now we can all agree that there were 4 people who we were led to believe could be Holiday. 1) Alberto 2) Gilda Dent 3) Harvey and 4) Carmine "The Roman" Falcone. There were others that were accused of being holiday like Maroni, but I am not going to go into them. Now the subjects of Alberto, Gilda and Harvey have been discussed at length. Yet, there was a fourth that until I was just looking through TLH, I had never even considered. Could Carmine have been a holiday killer? Lets look at the evidence. The first murder, Johnny Viti, the nephew of The Roman. He had attempted to rat on his uncle before, and it was mentioned more than once that the Roman had tried to kill Viti before. So who easier to get admittance to Johnny's house or to the bathroom? Now just for space sake, most of the first killings were people close to the Roman himself. So, if he had wanted to weed out the weak links, who better than himself to take these people out. Ok enough of that speculating.
Now I want to get into the why's. Murders 1,2,3 were all to get rid of the unloyal or weak links in the Falcone family.
Murders 5(or 4 depending on how you count the New Years murder),6,9, and 12 were all to get rid of the Maroni family. The April Fools issue was something special, I think it was alberto letting the riddler know what was going on. Murders 7,8 and 11 were all to cover up the fact that Alberto was still alive.
Also, something funny I found out is the only two times someone didn't die, New Years and April Fools were both holidays on the first days of their respective months. And then there is the 13th murder which was the ending to the holiday murders in the book. But who was the victim? There is only one victim per holiday so who's death qualifies as the ending to the Holiday murders in TLH? I think it was The Roman's, because with his death, the grip of crime families in gotham were loosened a lot. I think Vernon, if left alone would have gone straight, he was a patsy and wasn't really into the whole crime gig. I think Two-Face capped him for obvious reasons. Well, let me know what you guys think!
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DeForgeo
I still think that after New Year's, Carmine knew all about the killings. Everyone should at least attempt to believe this, for now. If he knew about it, he obviously supported it (I think we all can/have come to this conclusion). If he supported it, he would maybe help. So, muthmaniac, I think you're right.
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Dan Dreiberg
First, a response to Muthmaniac: while there is a certain logic to your questioning of Gilda's skills, I would argue that these points are not relevant int he murder mystery genre. One of the precepts in a murder mystery is that a normal person crosses the line and does the unthinkable, attempts to commit a perfect murder.
In the previous edition of this thread, I asked if there was a certain "fanboy" chauvinism at work in the unwillingness to accept Gilda as the killer. This was not meant to insult anyone, but this is a case in point. Alberto is as "unskilled" an assassin as Gilda is but that is not questioned as much as Gilda's lack of qualifications are.
In general, I don't think Gilda's lack of qualifications as a killer are relevant to this story. Most of the skills you sy she doesn't have could be learned. The inciting incident of the Holiday murders if Richard Maxwell's murder. That happens in September giving Gilda more than month to plan the killings.
Regarding the issue of the timing of the the Hallowen/Thanksgiving/Christmas killings: a careful reading says that they are all prior to the actual holiday (or in the earliest hours of that day--as opposed on the night of that day). I don't know who said that the first killing is on Halloween but it is clearly not as in the story, Johnny is shot, there is a night scene, then there is a cut to another night scene with the caption "Halloween Night." That is a time cut that implies that everything pervious was NOT Hlloween night.
Thanksgiving is trickier to demonstrate, but the Mick raises a toast to Thanksgiving Eve which traditonally means "the night before Thanksgiving." Halloween is "All Hallow's Eve," i.e. the night before All Saint's Day. Christmas Eve is 12/24 and New Year's Eve is 12/31. It would be sloppy of Jeph, in a story about days and dates and holidays to mistakenly use the term eve to mean Thanksgiving Day instead of the night before.
However, this is a tricky supposition only because the hit occurs AFTER the scene in which Batman explains how all the characters spent Thanksgiving. So if I'm right, the Jeph is a little tricky but justifiably so. There a different types of scenes in TLH: those narrated by Batman and other characters who are present. And the Holiday murders which are "filmed" in black and white and may not be in the exact continuity of the rest of the story. Batman's comments about how Thanksgiving was spent by the other characters may not even be reliable (is he going by what Harvey told him? That he was at the hospital?) are sort of an omniscient time-spanning thing so I think it is fair that the hit on the Irish is the night before Thanksgiving--because we are told that in the body of the scene.
The Roman's bodyguard is clearly killed on Christmas Eve. No questions.
So there is clearly a change in style between the Gilda killings and the Alberto killings.
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Cael
Good point about the timeline of the Xmas episode - it does seem as though it's all happening on Xmas Eve, though Batman does say "Milos. The Roman's personal bodyguard dies on Christmas Day."
A riddle: "When does a killer... not kill?" When it's April Fool's Day? Isn't the point of April Fool's Day to fool people and thus show up how ignorant they are? In other words, was someone trying to tell Riddler that he was ignorant when he said the Roman was the killer? Alberto? Another answer could be that a killer does not kill when he or she is not a, or in this case, the killer, though that answer lacks Riddler's usual wit...
Plus, there was no souvinir, unlike that other (but different) non-murder on New Year's Eve.
Cael
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Dan Dreiberg
I still think the umbrella is sort of the April 1 symbol for "April Showers."
I also like the interpretation for "When does a killer not kill?" as the Riddler realizing that Alberto faked his death.
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quezcotal
Wow this is giving me a headache.
Anyway, going strictly from the story, it seems Gilda did the Halloween, Thanksgiving, and Xmas murders. She confesses to it... she throws away the Holiday outfit. It makes sense.
Alberto fakes his death to get away from his father who shows him no respect after midnight new years eve. Gilda was probably planning on murdering someone later in the day.. not right at midnight.
Harvey comes home and Gilda thinks he started killing... that he bacame holiday. So she stops, letting her husband do what he had to do, thinking it was so they "could be together".
In actuality, Alberto, seeing that no other killing took place on New Years, takes over the holiday mantle. This can be PROVEN by the fact that he kills the morgue guy who could prove that wasn't alberto's body that washed ashore (in the cut pages). I think that proves that, and thats why the scene was cut, it was too big a hint.
Anyway, then alberto kills and kills, is caught, and the final holiday killing is when two face kills Maroni.
The big mystery in my mind is that, when two face said there was two holiday killers, what did he mean?
Him and alberto, cause he killed on halloween? Or did he know his wife was a killer, and that contributed to his madness? THATS the biggy...
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Vacuumboy9
the point about Gilda not having the skills to pay the bills--Alberto might not know how to kill someone either, but he could easily ask any number of family members who ARE trained assassins. They could easily teach him how to shoot (much like Michael Corleone was taught how to shoot in the Godfather). Gilda had no such store of knowledge to draw from. She couldn't ask anybody else.
And yes I think things like Gilda's shooting ability are valid, because it's a GOOD mystery, and most GOOD mysteries use logic to dictate who the killer is. Gilda is not a logical choice; too many things point away from her (such as how she got out of the hospital on Thanksgiving DAY).
And the "eve" thing--which I consider just us looking for patterns and finding stuff that we mold into what we want it to be after the fact, much like Julian's "he/she" thing (which in silence of the Lambs just showed that the killer was between genders)--
morning of Halloween, Johnny Viti is shot in the tub... that evening, jim, bats and harv discuss the murder, referring to it happening earlier THAT day (Harv's comment "Happy Halloween, Johnny. You're dead." fits with this interpretation), Bats finds cats listening in, Cats tells Bats about the warehouse, and Harv and Bats go to the warehouse. It's all the same day. There is no reason to think it's not.
Page 2 of issue 2 there is a panel that says "Thanksgiving NIGHT in Gotham"--eve can mean "night" as well as night before. It's short for evening.
On Christmas the issue starts on christmas eve, but by the end of the issue when Milos has been killed it has turned to Christmas. Midnight has passed. Thus, Batman's comment that Milos died on Christmas Day.
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muthmaniac
I have to say, I don't think I am being chauvinistic by saying I don't believe Gilda has the skills. And Alberto does because he is a man. I think you are correct, when you say that these are skills you can learn, and I believe Alberto has learned them through being in the family he is in. As opposed to Gilda learning them from Case Files that Harvey would brin home. I do see what your saying about the whole murder mystery thing, where someone unlearned attempts to do certain things. and I have to admit it makes for a great surprise ending. But I have to keep questioning it. I can't believe the theory that she was killing on or before holidays and then just stops cuz she thinks Harvey is doing them. That in itself is a main reason I don't believe it. She says she killed those people to make less work for Harvey. But if he is out killing all the time and doing his day job, then he is spending even less time with her. So take that Dan!!!
I am just kidding about that last part, you have some really valid points and I can see what your saying. I am freely admit I don't know a lot about the mureder mystery genre. Besides this book, and a couple of movies I am pretty much flying by the seat of my pants. And I am glad that you are finding my points worth criticizing, and I accept that. Jeph has said the answer is in the book and that it was left open for interpretation, well, I have found mine and you seem to have found yours!.
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Cael
If nothing else, Jeph is certainly adept at not telling us what we want, and then making us salivate for more!
I think Gilda could have easily commited murders, this being Gotham after all. Remember what Jim said to Batman when they were strolling around Arkham, how he suggested that the exponential growth of Gotham's lunatic population might be attributed to Batman? Hellava town. Lotsa psychos out there... which I guess could also explain Gilda's words at the end there...
Speaking of classic murder mysteries... wouldn't it be funny if the butler did it? He was sure actin' fishy every time Harvey dropped in for a visit...
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muthmaniac
I don't think it is Gotham that drives these people crazy. Gotham doesn't run around deforming babies, or throwin people into chemicals, or even killing people's parents. It isn't Gotham.
TLH was a great story, and I think that having Gilda confess at the end is a good idea. It keeps the story going long after the last chapter. I don't believe that Jeph is giviing us the finger or writing hamfisted stories. I think he is doing exactly what he intended to do, keep people talking about his story. That is his job after all.
It is kind of like the "other best comicbook story" Watchmen. Thorughout the entire thing I was waiting for this totally diabolical person and it turns oout to be one of the heroes. And if you look close enough you may even see a coouple parallels. I love this book, I believe Jeph Loeb may be one of the best writers in comics today. And I think he threw the Gilda thing in to skack us off the trail.
If he had just let the story end, with Harvey and Alberto as the killers it still woould have been a good story. But it would not be this talked about.
I think some people aretrying to hard to take everything that is written as gospel. Believe it or not, but characters can lie. It is the same as Jeph has said before, if I say I killed OJ's wife, does it mean I killed OJ's wife? No, maybe I am delusional. Perhaps I wanted him to stop worrying about hid wife and make another "Naked gun" movie!!!
Not everything that is said is the truth.
Now there have been some very good points about Gilda being the killer, but none good enough yet to convince me. So until then I will not agree with the idea of gilda as a killer.
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John Paul George Ringo
An interesting theory is that Harvey Dent committed some of the Hoilday killings. I think he could have committed some or even most of them with the help of Alberto. Somebody was wise to point out that after Harvey Dent was scarred by acid the killer didn't leave behind any more artifacts. Perhaps Alberto was more hasty without Harvey's help. Also when Maroni got killed the otomatapia says something like ka-blam, ka-blam and not a silenced gun noise like phut-phut. Alberto seems meek in Dark Victory and to be honest not the smartest person in the series, therefore he needed help. How else could he take out a whole safehouse on St. Patrick's Day? Also Gilda found the gun in the basement and confronted Harvey with it. If she was ever Holiday why would she draw her husband's attention to herself? Harvey was very mum when it came to Gilda's questioning. In Batman Annual #14 (the one with the stunning Neal Adams cover) and the Who's Who file from the loose leaf series of the early 90s, we are told that Harvey killed a criminal (Aqquited serial killer, Dr. Rudolph Klemper) before ever officially becoming Two-Face. In Long Holloween and Dark Victory we could see the same pretense of the theme that Harvey's Dark side was always present in his life. We also see evidence of this on the cartoon with Big Bad Harv from the two part origin episode of Two-Face. Another piece that was taken from Batman Annual #14 was Harvey's relation ship with his father and how he got his two-headed dollar--even though it was implied in the Fathers' Day issue of Long Holloween.
Gilda admits to three sets of murders, the first two of which were extremely hard to pull off. These murders were also around the time she had a severe head injury. It is very possible that a section of her brain could have been injured, and confronted with the evidence in July that Harvey could have very well have been Holiday transfered the guilt over to herself because the injury damaged her mind. In the final pages of the series she is talking to herself and burning the pieces of Holiday evidence which were probably Harvey's.
Remember when Alberto was saying to his father earlier on in the series that "there might be another way" he was referring to the Holiday plan or maybe even cutting a deal with D.A. Harvey Dent to leave Maroni in the dust. It would be interesting if Alberto and Dent teamed up to "clean up" Gotham because it would darkly mirror the Batman/Gordon/Dent team up to clean up the mobs in Gotham. Alberto could have had Harvey for a silent partner. Notice how Dent and Alberto never have been seen in the same place in either Long Holloween or Dark Victory? Makes you think, doesn't it?
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Cael
In the classic film noir 'The Big Sleep', it's said that the screenwriters themselves didn't know what was going on for a lot of it, and that they couldn't even account for two of the murders in the film. The original book's author allegedly didn't know himself!
I wonder if Jeph _really_ has all the answers to this mystery...
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Vacuumboy9
I personally attribute the volume of the shots that killed Maroni to the environment. They were in such an enclosed space that any shot, even if it was muffled, would echo and increase in volume.
Besides all of the other killings were totally without sound. Maybe in reality all of the killings sounded like this. It's true that the nipple would have only silenced one shot, and not that well either. Maybe they were all loud and Tim only felt like giving us the onomatopoeia on this last one.
Also look at the shots that hit Maroni's bodyguard. No noise on those.
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LarryF
In the interest of full disclosure, I am the poster formerly known as Carr.
As for Gilda having knowledge of how to conduct the killings, I believe she specifically stated she got some of her information from Harvey's files. That seems like a very peculiar detail to make up if she were simply in a delusional state.
If she were not involved, how would she even know baby bottle nipples were involved in the killings? Under Vacuumboy's logic that we are to assume the police follow standard procedure, we can assume that they will not tell the press the details of the killings, for fear of not being able to tell the original killings from possible copycats.
As for the argument that Julian Day made up the "he/she" stuff just to throw people off the track, why would he switch from one to the other? If he knows the killer is a male, why not just use she? Why not just assume that it IS one or the other? Why consciously switch? Why not make up some other detail to throw people off, like "The killer has a glass eye"? Why in the later conversations does he seem to accurately guess WHEN the switch from Gilda to Alberto took place?
The picture of Gilda in the most recent issue has a message on it, which I think we can safely conclude is "Guilty as Sin". This suggests, at the very least, the hangman killer thinks Gilda was Holiday.
This narrows the field for the Hangman killer:
1) Gilda. If she is the hangman killer (as improbable as it sounds), then she would either know she was Holiday, or, if Vacuumboy's theory is correct, her delusion that she was Holiday could be continuing.
This seems unlikely. Regardless of whether Vacuumboy is correct, Gilda was seen at the end of TLH COVERING UP her involvement (or believed involvement) in the Holiday killings. She wouldn't expose herself with the photo.
2) Harvey Dent/Two Face
I believe Harvey Dent was attempting to cover for Gilda at the end of TLH. Two Face may not be as loyal to Gilda as Harvey is.
3) Julian Day
Obviously, if Gilda was Holiday, he had some source of inside knowledge regarding the Holiday killings.
I believe Julian may have been involved in the planning of the Holiday murders, or perhaps instigated them in some way. This would explain why he knew the "he/she" distinction; why he sarcastically apologized in DV 0; and, perhaps, how Gilda obtained some of her knowledge in TLH.
--Of course, it could always be someone from left field who had some undisclosed knowledge about the killings.
One final note: I know this has been said before, but I want to thank Vaccumboy for his insights. I am an ardent Gildaist, but I have enjoyed the discussion. Vacuumboy has certainly tried keep this a civil debate, and I urge other posters to do so, as well.
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Vacuumboy9
why the name change, Carr ole pal?
you asked how gilda would know about the nipples if she wasn't holiday, saying it wouldn't be in the papers. Well there's also those case files of Harvey's that she could have seen. She did snoop around enough to find one of the .22s he brought home.
I think it'd be easier to learn details about killings than how to do the killings from these files.
I don't think Julian did the he/she thing to throw people off. I also don't think he did it because he KNEW who it was. He DIDN'T know and was covering his bases. If you look back on all his appearances (and there were only a few) he really didn't provide any useful info.
and as for the photo, I've said in other forums that i don't think the photo is meant to say that Gilda is guilty as sin. I think that the photo as wer some of the other clues are just meant to point at Harvey, possibly in an attempt to frame him for these killings.
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Killer Smile
You all seem to forget the symbolism of the baby bottle nipple. It's shown on Holiday's workbench, then immediately on the windowsill of the Gordon residence. Why did Holiday decide on baby-bottle nipples as a muffler?
Well, for one, thing, they're pretty cheap. Gilda, being on a budget, would appreciate that.
But what else? A BABY-bottle nipple. Gilda's madness stemmed from the desperation that she felt, that she and Harvey would never have a secret between only them, a little child. A bundle of joy. And Gilda felt that the only thing that separated her from her literal union with Harvey was The Roman crime family. Their destruction was to be her salvation. The baby bottle nipple isn't just a silencer...it's a cry for understanding from Gilda's desperate mind!
GILDA DENT WAS THE ONE TRUE HOLIDAY.
NOW WHO IS HANG MAN?!
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Dan Dreiberg
I am with Killer Smile on the nipple front. But I have to ask KS: are you saying that Gilda did all the killings? Or by one true Holiday do you mean she is the Original Holiday?
You do believe in Harvey Dent, don't you, when he says there were two Holiday killers?
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Dan Dreiberg
The other challenge I have for Vaccuumboy is: why? According to VB's theory, the only reason for Gilda's confession to be in the story is to show she has gone crazy. If Alberto is the sole Holiday, then Harvey's "2 Holidays" comment makes no sense, and Gilda's confession does nothing to illuminate the story. If Alberto is the only Holiday, then Gilda's suspicion that Harvey performed some the killings is not releavnt to the story's final pages.
Dramatically, the structure that makes sense to me is:
1) Alberto gets caught and takes credit for all the killings.
2) Batman and Gordon wonder and Harvey tells them there is another. (My personal theory is that Batman knows but throws out the "Harvey means himself" theory to throw Gordon off the trail.)
3) Cut to: what Harvey means. Gilda destroying the evidence, telling us the story from her p.o.v. yes, she has some facts wrong, but her story explains why there was no Holiday duel when Alberto took over.
If there is a more compelling explanation of why the Gilda scene would be there if we are just supposed to think she is crazy, I would love to hear it.
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Cael
There's also the question of the hand the killer uses. The first three were all right-hand slayings. 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 were all left handed. #11, Carla, was killed by a right handed assailant but as I have said there was no souvinir so I don't regard this as a real 'Holiday' killing. The Riddler's attacker in #7 uses the right hand.
We have seen Two-Face/Harvey use his left hand to shoot The Roman, and we've seen Alberto use his right hand to shoot Maroni. Thus, this supports my theory that Harvey was the killer in #5, 6, 8, 9 and 10, and Gilda in #1-3. That leaves Alberto for #7, 11 and 12.
Another oddie - Riddler says Carmine is the murderer, after Carmine threatened to kill him if he doesn't say who it is. But Carmine doesn't kill Riddler. So I guess that threat was sort of like an April Fool's.
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Kahoetek
I just hope the DV ending doesn't leave people this confused more than a year after it's publication.
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Vacuumboy9
I've said before why I believe Gilda was crazy, because the "how she did it" just doesn't add up to me. How'd she get the gun in the first place? How was she able to get in and out of the Falcone mansion to kill johnny Viti? How'd she get out of the hospital on Thanksgiving? How'd Alberto know on New Year's that his plan to take over as Holiday would work and that the "real" holiday wouldn't strike? How'd the police not catch that the guns were made by diff. people after new year's?
I've said before, but will say again, why I think the scene was included in the end of TLh. Two months have passed since Halloween and Harvey (who himself was the 2nd holiday he alluded to, himself killing twice on that Halloween) was NOT going to get better. Their relationship was over. But she so badly wanted to believe that it was going to happen, that it would work out. So she created a fantasy to lie to herself and say that it would. She created a reality for herself in which she actively did something to save her marriage rather than let it fall apart passively like she really did. Look at how it fits in with how the rest of the characters end up. Jim says "I believe in Gotham City" even tho his heart is more than a little broken. He says it to himself to move on. Bats does the same. Andso Gilda to try to keep herself together says "I believe in Harvey." The scene was put there by Jeph to show how far they had fallen... and to keep us talking about it months later. To spark debate. And it worked.
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John Paul George Ringo
Vaccuumboy9, I gotta agree with you. It is NOT pluasable that Gilda was EVER Holiday!
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Killer Smile
I mean, Virginia, that Gilda was the one true Holiday because she came up with it all. Alberto was just a copycat who was confused as the real thing.
As for Vac's criticisms, let's deal with 'em. Keep in mind, yet, that I believe Gilda committed the first three Holiday crimes and Alberto was responsible for the last.
Oh, and Cael...WHO CARES about left or right handed? In Batman's summary on April Fool's, most of the characters portrayed used different hands for different murders. It doesn't matter, left handed or right handed, that close you're NOT gonna miss. Besides, two-handed shooting is sexy since John Woo came to America.
Now...
1)How did Gilda get the gun?
Gotham City is a dirty, psychotically corrupt city of seven million people. I'm sure she bought the .22 right off the back of a van. Who wouldn't sell a gun to a harmless-looking little housewife? Hell, she could have bought the friggin' thing from a gun dealer, then chopped off the serial numbers. She's innocent LOOKING...which is one of the reasons she got away.
2)How did Gilda kill Johnny Viti?
How did Batman survive New Year's? It's a comic book...you can't expect the mystery of such things to be explainable. How did Alberto get so close to Vincent Maroni? How did he get into the jailhouse tunnels to get Sal Maroni? HE JUST DID. So did Gilda. Really, getting into somebody's house is NOT that hard, trust me, I've done it. Imagine what a cop wife is capable of.
3)How did Gilda escape the hospital without Harvey noticing?
I agree this is the suspect one...but anger and rage are powerful motivators. A concussion wouldn't keep me from striking back at my enemies, and I expect no less from a violent serial killer, even if she is a housewife. She simply waited until Harvey was asleep, went home to retrieve her costume and weapons, killed the Irish in the Hotel Astoria, then returned the costume and went back to the hospital. Harvey wakes up refreshed, Gilda enjoys some deep sleep, and five men are dead. Simple, as they say, as slitting a throat.
4)How did Alberto know that Holiday would stop and he'd be the only one?
He didn't. He was a stupid copycat who got lucky that the real deal madly thought that her own husband had taken over her murdering. And really, his murders did get dumber, until they were so personal that there was only one suspect. And then he took the fall to spite his father.
5)How did the police miss that the guns were made by different people?
The guns looked different in several ways during a good deal of the year. Different noses, different triggers, different markings. It doesn't matter, really...Gilda probably got hers from some illegal dealer, just like Alberto did. Alberto's flaw was that he got dumb and had one guy make all of his guns...unless he was LOOKING for another Holiday murder. He certainly could have made off with a couple of doctored .22's.
Oh, BTW, the Chinese lettering on Chong's Tea House is total gibberish, according to my Chinese roommate.
Frankly, I dislike the whole Gilda's fantasy idea. I concur that she was delusional in believing that Harvey was Holiday, but I do believe that she started the whole thing with truly honest intentions. She got away with the perfect murder...unluckily, it cost her the only man she'd ever loved.
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SIMPLE SHERLOCK
I completely agree with Killer Smile. Gilda was the 1st, true killer and Alberto was just a copycat. And Killer brings up a good point IT'S A COMIC BOOK. Our world isn't theirs. No man could be Batman in our world, no matter how much training and money he had. Psychologists can't make "fear toxins". Maroni can't "splash" Harvey with acid and have it burn his face perfectly down the center.
In the DCU motivation goes a long way. Anyone can pretty much do ANYTHING if they try hard enough (like recuperate from a broken spine in 6 months) And Gilda could shoot some unsuspecting mooks with a .22 if she wanted to bad enough. If you're gonna argue that it's impossible for Gilda to sneak out of a hospital, then I can't wait to see how you view Mr. Freeze's appearance later on (a scientist that falls in freezing chemicals and DOESN'T DIE, but has his body chemically altered.)
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Cael
KS, I think the hand the killer uses to kill is important because on New Year's Eve we are _not_ shown which hand is used, while we are shown the hand on every other occasion. Seems kinda strange that Jeph would feed us clues like this... Also when the Riddler and Batman are deducing in #7, that's all they are doing. No one but we readers actually 'see' the murders/murderer (and, after #7, the Riddler has too).
What I'd really like to know is what happened to Alberto on New Year's Eve... Did the Roman know all about it, as Batman thought? Or did Harvey shoot him, as Gilda thought?
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Vacuumboy9
I can't believe that this topic has only been up for two weeks and we're already onto a second page. Way to go, folks!
I also think this is a good place, since the argument here is what I'm best known for, to announce that in 25 posts I will reach 500. I expect you all to throw me a party.
Now, onto some arguments:
LarryF (or Carr), you asked how Gilda knew about the nipple silencers saying that if the police had been doing their jobs and following standard procedure it would have been kept out of the papers. Well I was doing the annotation for issue 3 of TLH today for my website and found on page one a picture of the used nipple in the newspaper Joker reads, alongside gruesome photos of Jhonny Viti dead in a bathtub and the Irish gang slaughtered. Nothing like a little mass murder with your bowl of Trix, is there?
I don't understand why the police would release some of these details but they obviously did.
Killer Smile and Simple Sherlock, you tell me that I should suspend my disbelief in regards to some of the killings, that the murders of Johnny and the Irish gang might not make a lot of sense in the real world but that it's just comics so chill. I'm sorry but I can't. The thing I love most about TLH and DV is that Jeph and Tim have told a story that to me seems very realistic. If Gilda did these killings, I would have to suspend a lot of doubts in my mind to believe it, and I just can't. I can believe fantasy elements like Mr. Freeze's origin (and Harvey's acid in the face actually seems possible to me that someone would not be killed but just horribly disfigured--this isn't magical acid like the stuff that eats through the Wren's face in Cube--it's true-to-life stuff that, given proper medical attention as Harvey was, would not eat all the way through, especially not instantaneously) because they are just that--fantasy. But Gilda's confession purports to be true, following real-life logic. And for me it doesn't.
(I hope I explained that well. Basically I'm just saying that suspension of disbelief is something I can do in fantasy but not in realism and TLH is very much realism.)
And finally Killer Smile, you mentioned the different guns and that Alberto's mistake is that he got them all from the same dealer. That's sort of my point. If the police looked at the guns, which they certainly would have, then if Gilda had been Holiday they would have seen a different model gun bein gused until New Year's and then all one type from then on. That certainly would have made them wonder and would have been something we would have been privy to.
If Gilda's guns had all been the same, and purchased from one dealer, that dealer would surely have realized after a while that he was selling guns to this housewife and the same guns were turning up in the papers as murder weapons used by Holiday. I would think that even an illegal arms dealer would not want a part in the high profile murders of mafia hitmen... unless he was hired by the mob itself, as Gunsmith surely was.
And I think it would have been too much of a coincidence for Gilda to have bought her guns from Gunsmith too.
Thanks everybody for continuing the debate. You're giving me great material for my webpage.
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alitaki
I can't believe I'm getting involved in this thread again...god help me... anywho, Killer you're way off base with some of your comments.
1)How did Gilda get the gun? Gotham City is a dirty, psychotically corrupt city of seven million people. I'm sure she bought the .22 right off the back of a van. Who wouldn't sell a gun to a harmless-looking little housewife? Hell, she could have bought the friggin' thing from a gun dealer, then chopped off the serial numbers. She's innocent LOOKING...which is one of the reasons she got away.
First off you're correct in that its not difficult to get a gun in a city like Gotham (much like New York). However, I find unlikely that Gilda would even know where to begin to get an illegal gun. Point #1: an illegal gun dealer would not be easy to find and contact would have to be setup through a go between. Even if she had gone through Harvey's case files from the past (which I doubt because she seemed very surprised when she found Harvey bringing home evidence and case related material) you can't just walk up to a contact and say "psst. i'm looking for illegal guns". Point #2: If the gun was purchased illegally, the serial number would already have been removed by the gun runner. No way will an illegal gun seller leave the serial number on the gun. So If Gilda was the killer, then she must have bought the gun from a legit shop and then removed the serial number (as shown in issue 1). So if she bought the gun legally there must have been a paper trail of sorts. Even without the serial number tracking a gun is not that difficult.
2)How did Gilda kill Johnny Viti?
How did Batman survive New Year's? It's a comic book...you can't expect the mystery of such things to be explainable. How did Alberto get so close to Vincent Maroni? How did he get into the jailhouse tunnels to get Sal Maroni? HE JUST DID. So did Gilda. Really, getting into somebody's house is NOT that hard, trust me, I've done it. Imagine what a cop wife is capable of.
please tell me you don't seriously believe this. an ordinary housewife breaking into a mafioso's house? Thats just rediculous. And its not just a comic book anymore when the writer tries real hard to make the story as realistic as possible. If one was to accept that then the whole story is tarnished.
3)How did Gilda escape the hospital without Harvey noticing?
I agree this is the suspect one...but anger and rage are powerful motivators. A concussion wouldn't keep me from striking back at my enemies, and I expect no less from a violent serial killer, even if she is a housewife. She simply waited until Harvey was asleep, went home to retrieve her costume and weapons, killed the Irish in the Hotel Astoria, then returned the costume and went back to the hospital. Harvey wakes up refreshed, Gilda enjoys some deep sleep, and five men are dead. Simple, as they say, as slitting a throat.
A concussion wouldn't keep you from striking back at your enemies? Apparently you've never had one. I really doubt it was a mild concussion that she had from that explosion. No way should she be functional enough to escape from a hospital unnoticed, kill 5 guys and return unoticed that soon after a major concussion. And for your theory on how she did it doesn't wash either. A woman survives a major blast like that and a nurse doesn't come to check on her every so often? Highly unlikely.
4)How did Alberto know that Holiday would stop and he'd be the only one?
He didn't. He was a stupid copycat who got lucky that the real deal madly thought that her own husband had taken over her murdering. And really, his murders did get dumber, until they were so personal that there was only one suspect. And then he took the fall to spite his father.
so we're suppossed to suspend disbelief for this bit of "luck" too?
I reject any notion that Gilda committed any of the killings. And this is the problem I have with TLH. That last scene was completly unneccessary. In my opinion it didn't enhance the story one bit but rather took away from it by causing all the controversy and debate.
My vote for who committed the murders? Alberto alone. Maybe I'll accept a Harvey/Albeto theory if presented properly but I do believe it was Alberto.
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Celtic Chief
Vaccumboy, I too think Gilda was in a fantasy when she 'confessed' to the killings.
The two hand thing - could one be Harvey and the other the other half of his mind that would become Two-Face? Just a thought.
Also when Harvey cionfessed to Bats & Jim, he could have been confessing as Two-Face and Harvey.
I aggree with you 100% on Gilda though.
Jeph, don't make it Gilda, it's a bit of a cop out. (Gasp! Shock! Did Celtic Chief just critisise the great Loeb! He did! Makes a change from wanting them on the monthlies though... )
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John Paul George Ringo
Hey Alitaki, looking for a Alberto Harvey conspiracy theory? What do you think of my thoughts on page one of this post?
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Cael
Albertists; How do you explain the gun metal filings in the vise on Harvey's workbench? Seems kind of a strange thing to do, file guns in your basement
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SIMPLE SHERLOCK
DAMN STRAIGHT, CAEL! Most Albertists seem to "forget" about that bit of evidence.
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Killer Smile
Wow, your points to cunningly disarm mine sure are weak, guys.
Cael-the hand don't matter. I'm a fair shot with my left hand, not as good as with my right, but fair. At point-blank range, I'm deadly, same as you.
Vac-Good point about the newspapers showing pictures of the murders. My newspaper shows nothing...but then, the reporters have been on strike for nearly seven months. Sheesh, it's turning into DKR.
Also, CUBE was good. Lousy the second time, though. Brilliant set design, and I love how all the characters are named after prisons.
Suspension of disbelief...let me deal with Vac and Alitaki's gripes here. Johnny Viti was not a crime boss. He wasn't even a capo. He was a hit man who happened to be working for his uncle. He doubtlessly lived alone, for why would a hit man need protection? He probably lived in a common suburb, just like John Gotti did. No big deal to break into that. Gilda would have just as simple a time as Alberto.
Guns...not a big deal. The police would have noticed if a gun was by a certain manufacturer, but nothing else. I mean, no cop can look at a gun and say, "You know, this is just like that kind of .22 crazy Gunsmith sells down in Chi-town!" Jeph never made any mention of different types...I simply noticed that Tim drew some of them differently. It doesn't matter. If Holiday was worried, she/he would not have LEFT THEM BEHIND to begin with!
If the police were able to decipher that Gunsmith made the guns, they would have arrested him. The only thing that doomed him was a rumor that he was making special .22's.
Alitaki...you can buy guns off the back of vans in huge corrupt cities. You can buy hot merchandise of almost ANY kind off the back of a van in NY. My basis for this theory is a recent Practice episode where Camryn Mannheim's character and another buy firearms for protection off the back of a van. On their lunchbreak. It's not that hard. Gilda would only need a go-between if she were buying hundreds of guns. All she needed were three guns and a box of ammo. Bang, bang, Johnny, you're dead.
Concussion...Alitaki, I've never had a concussion. But I'm fairly certain you can recover from one enough to walk around and murder with TWO WEEKS of recovery time. You people have Thankgiving on the 12th or something, right?
Y'know, guys...it's COOLER for Gilda to be the murderer, too.
People were guessing it was Alberto, in droves, right from New Year's on. Celtic Chief, old boy...he already DID make 'it' Gilda.
Excellent point about the gun metal filings, Cael, btw.
GILDA DENT WAS THE ONE TRUE HOLIDAY.
NOW WHO IS HANG MAN?
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muthmaniac
O.K. as we all know Jeph has told us the ending is open for interpretation. Now, at this point I believe we have a nice amout of evidence going in both directions.
But, GILDA did not kill anyone!
Now as for a logical theory, how about this?
Alberto being pissed that he wasn't allowed to openly participate in family goes to DA Dent to talk about some way of getting back at his family. they talk about different things and Harvey eventually gets tired of these ideas, or sees that Alberto is just being some revengeful brat and says the only way to get back at his family is to get rid of them.
(Now so far I don't think this is out of character for either person, so I hope you guys are following)
alberto leaves kind of pissed at Harvey for not agreeing to his plan, but at the same time the thing that Harvey said sticks in his head. Hence the idea of killing off the Falcones men is planted.
So, soon bang bang, a couple of people are dead.
Around New Years, Harvey confronts Alberto, and Al admits that he is Holiday. Then Alberto comes up wit hthis plan that he should be the next victim, that way it stays with the Falcones, plus takes him out of the way of being suspected. Harvey thinks its a pretty good idea. After all, he is trying to do his best to get rid of the crime families, so he agrees to help Al. Waiting outside on his own little boat and catches Al when he falls overboard.
Now, The Roman, as we who have the TPB, sees that Alberto isn't really dead, and seeks Al out. He convinces Alberto to start working on the Maroni family. Al jumps at the chance to be helping his father and bang bang more people die.
Now if this theory holds any water, which at least while I'm typing this it does, it pretty much goes along with how the story went during the times we didn't see.
As for the gun shavings in Dent's basement, he was down there a lot, so I don't think Gilda would have been suspicious by hearing tools being used or what not. And she is the one that catches him with a gun not him catching her.
Now I am not trying to criticize Jeph for this, but if he truly intended Gilda to the killer, he should have had her in the basement, and Harvey comes down to find her with a gun and he questions her and she says she thought it was a piece of evidence. Or something like that. (but what does a whelp like me know?)
Well, let me know what you guys think!
I believe in a non Gilda Holiday.
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muthmaniac
since no one has come up against my theory, I can take it one of two ways.
1) Everyone agrees that my theory is sound therefor no more reason to argue!
OR
2) everyone thinks that I am completely insane and therefore have secretly moved the entire discussion to an undisclosed forum to which I am forbidden!
Either way I intend to continue with my rantings.
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John Paul George Ringo
muthmaniac,
Interesting theory...sounds similar to some of my own...I agree except for the Roman knowing that his son was alive. It doesn't make sense later when Alberto is snippy with him in the interogation room in THL #13.
JPGR
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muthmaniac
I think that the Roman did know.
The biggest clue being the April Fools issue.
Noone knew the Riddler would be there except Roman.
Beyond that, he would probably know when he saw the body. Since the coroner seemingly knew and was killed for it.
I don't know how many have seen the extra pages in the TPB, but since it isn't in the story it didn't happen like that. Basically, because if we see "a" body that is at least supposed to be Alberto's. Then it goes against him being alive.
JPGR-
I liked your thing about the gun filings in the other post. That was something that I had totally missed.
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John Paul George Ringo
muthmaniac,
There might be more to the Riddler Holiday confrontation that we know...
Also in the collected edition of THL the lost pages section shows Alberto's "body" being found by the Roman. The coroner says something about the gulls meaning they had picked away at the corpse therefore making the face unrecognizable. Alberto (and or Harvey) simply killed the coroner on July 4th to keep him from uncovering the truth. Next issue Carla Viti was probably looking for Alberto's file (which was mysteriously not shown), suspecting that the coroner was the key to solving the Holiday murders because he was the only non-criminal victim.
JPGR
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John Paul George Ringo
Anybody ever notice how Harvey Dent and Alberto Falcone are never shown interacting?
Something for everybody to think about...
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John Paul George Ringo
Muthmaniac,
I remember bringing up the gun metal filings but which post was it on? Under which specific topic?
JPGR
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LarryF
The problem with Muth's theory is this:
Jeph has said that the answer to the mystery was, in fact given in TLH. None of the elements of your theory were, in fact, given.
I believe Gilda was Holiday (at least initially). I agree with the earlier poster that the story is cooler if she is. And no other theory has made sense to me.
And while Jeph has said he does not expect people to blindly accept the ending to TLH, I cannot believe he would tell a mystery and not clearly present the answer to it. He has told us he did, and he did.
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Dan Dreiberg
I think Jeph warns not to accept Gilda's statement blindly is because she is wrong about who took up the Holiday mantle after her. She stopped for the wrong reason. Gilda is not a good enough detective to figure out that the 2nd Holiday became self-serving (covering up Alberto's fake death).
Harvey tells Batman and Gordon there were two killers because he knows Gilda was the first killer and as Two-Face he appreciates the irony of two killers as well as the twist that his "better half" unwittingly sparked the series of events that transformed him into Two-face. Again, that's the version that is most poignant and dramatic.
Alberto as the sole Holiday is boring and means Harvey is wrong when he says there are 2 killers.
Harvey Dent as the first Holiday is also boring and anti-climactic. The story of a crusading district attorney who becomes a vigilante killing criminals and then becomes a villain himself is a much sloppier story.
Am I repeating myself. I think so.
I am joining the Killer Smile team: Gilda is the one true Holiday! She's "guilty as sin."
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John Paul George Ringo
Y'know Jeph is probably enjoying every minute of this...
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CuriousWilliam
Could someone answer a couple of things for me?
1)Why is Catwoman not suspect?
2)If The Roman had no part of it, why does he say "He's going to the gas chamber when I could have stopped the whole thing" in regards to Alberto?
3)Why does Catwoman show so much compassion towards Sophia when she falls out of the window?
IMO, Carmine and Alberto were Holiday. Two-Face eludes to Carmine's role when he said "The Roman is dead. The long Halloween is over."
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muthmaniac
You know you guys are right. My theory had quite a few holes in it. and Jeph did say that everything is in the story.
Everything but, the one thing all you "Gildists" need. an actual confession for the killings.
If you look, Gilda never says she was actually Holiday. She is just rambling on about reading files and using coats and hats.
Everything is in the book. Alberto says he was Holiday.
And in his own way Har...I mean Two-face was Holiday too.
Also, if Harv was completely innocent, then why did the thing about the wet hair keep coming up? Was it a red herring? Or is it pointing the finger.
As an aside, isn't amazing how fast this topic fills up! Man, this litle mystery is getting people really passionate about the story. If only everyone could see this stuff the way we do. Maybe the market would be in better condition. Oh well now I am just rambling. 'night all.
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Dan Dreiberg
The wet hair was necessary for Gilda to give up being Holiday.
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John Paul George Ringo
CuriousWilliam,
Catwoman is not suspect because she's doesn't kill. It is way out of character for her to kill someone in cold blood. She felt sad for Sofia because she didn't want to see her die, maybe maimed, but not dead. Deep down Catwoman actually has a moral code, so techically she is on the side of good.
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Dan Dreiberg
I also think Gilda is Holiday because Jeph's initial idea was to take a seemingly harmless character from the Batman myth (Calendar Man) and turn him into a vicious killer, which DC did not allow. So it makes more sense to pull off the same feat using Gilda, then to just introduce a straw man like Alberto to make the killer.
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Vacuumboy9
Where did you hear about this "initial idea" of Jeph's? Is it in a published interview? If so I'd like to put it on my site.
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muthmaniac
What if the wet hair was just Harvey had to walk a couple of blocks to get to his car and forgot his hat in the car. So his hair would be wet, and he would have the hair wet underneath because of the walk.
Also, like Gilda said herself, and as we all saw, Holiday wore a hat!!!
So, why would she think that he was a killer, if she had wore the hats and then saw his hair was all wet.
It is a minor detail, but if it is becoming the linchpin, then why wouldn't she see it?
Sorry Dan but, your reasonings are getting a little weaker. You had a good argument going, but now it has turned into "Gilda had to see the wet hair to stop killing".
Another thing, with the whole Gilda seeing Harvey with hair all wet and carrying his coat and hat.
How would Harvey know what Holiday was dressed like? The only people that had seen "him" to this point were all dead.
The whole thing with Gilda was a ruse. She was cuckoo, a little off the rocker if you get my drift!!
Trying to grab onto something that would keep her close to Harvey.
Sorry, but no dice, Gilda is as innocent as...well something that is innocent, I don't know.
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doriangray
here is what i can get as a summary of the two main theories. i don't have my tlh on hand , so this is probably missing a bit.
1)Gilda did the first three and Alberto did the rest.
2)Alberto did them all.
Theory 1 Gilda and alberto
pros
*she admits to it at the end of TLH
*it explains why Harvey said there were two holidays (i don't think harvey thought of himself as holiday, and he didn't leave any prop when he killed the roman)
cons
*gilda would have had a great deal of difficulty in hitting johnny in his house and was in hospital for the next two
Theory 2 alberto alone
pros
*alberto would have had ready access to the victime of the first three killings
*it would (if his father knew) be a good way of clearing house and starting a war against Maroni (maybe the Roman never did stop trying to have johnny killed, he just put it on hold for a while, and the irish, well they posed the possibility of getting the roman put behind bars).
cons
*the roman didn't seem very eager to involve alberto in the family business.
*it is unlikely the gilda would concoct a fantasy where she was holiday just to resolve the whole issue in her head.
as you can probably see, i cannot for the life of me get the facts to add up. but i must say that the arguments on both sides have been really good. it's cool to see some actual discussions on a message board, rather than just chat which seems to cover the net everywhere. cheers
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Dan Dreiberg
Gilda presumes the wet hair is from the trip to and from the boat (after she hears Alberto is killed), not from the rain.
Do me a favor. reread the story as if Gilda is the killer and every scene of hers really comes to life. Honest.
For instance: on new Year's Eve, she says she is trying a new start, which implies hse was not planning on a Holiday killing. Now that they have a new house, she wants to start a family.
Trust me. Guilty as sin. It is all in the story.
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Vacuumboy9
Dan, I've done that. After issue 13 came out I tried and tried to believe it. I confused the hell out of me. I couldn't fathom it and had long discussions with friends who also read the series for months about the ending.
Finally I just said to myself, "Why do you HAVE to believe her? Would you believe everything Nick Carraway or Quentin or Holden Caulfield or Binx Bolling said? NO! She might be mentally unstable."
This wasn't just something I decided upon reading the trade. I read these issues as they came out and after the thirteenth I hemed and hawed over it for quite a while, having invested so much time into the series and feelig ripped off in the end. And then I realized that if Gilda is delusional, then that love I have for the series could return.
Dan, would you try reading the entire series for me with the viewpoint that she's off her rocker?
(It'll be hard and if you can't I understand. I never was fully able to believe her myself, while you might be totally believing her and can't not.)
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LarryF
Muth raises an interesting point:
How would Harvey know what Holiday dresses like?
I have a more fundamental point:
How would GILDA know what Holiday dresses like?
Gilda is seen at the end of TLH burning a coat and hat IDENTICAL to that which Holiday wears. If, as Muth argues, only Holiday's victims and Holiday know what he wears, then why would Gilda be burning those particular items unless she was Holiday?
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muthmaniac
Damn it, Larry!!!
I have just dug myself into a whole really deep.
I have no more of an argument. (At least for now.) I haven't read TLH for at least three days, so maybe I need to go back and find something new.
I don't know how, but I will prevail, hopefully.
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Dan Dreiberg
Bravo Larry!
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Vacuumboy9
How would Gilda know what Holiday wore?
Maybe the Riddler told the papers that he saw Holiday,, since in Julian Day's cell we see a headline April Fool's No Killing! and he also reads from the article off the wall. Reporters found out that the Riddler got shot at by Holiday and wasn't killed. Think they also might have got a basic description too?
You betcha!
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LarryF
Which is more plausible:
A. A housewife is envious of the time her husband spends fighting crimes, resents the fact that criminals have blown up her new home, and then decides to take revenge by killing them, using knowledge she learned from her D.A. husband's files. At one point, she sneaks out of a hospital to commit some of the killings, leaving her husband asleep at her bedside (I admit this is the weakest part of the story as presented, though we know she was able to walk without the wheelchair). She then decides to stop when she believes, incorrectly, that her husband has taken up her mantel. In fact, a young man who resents the fact that he is seen as powerless by his family has taken up the mantel, and uses the pattern of killings as a cover to execute some of his father's enemies. To further the illusion that there was just one killer, the second killer goes to an arms dealer to find guns which match the type left at the scene of the earlier killings. A serial killer who is trusted by the police and Batman as an expert in the field, notices some subtle change in the killings, and notes this in changing the gender of the killers as he refers to them. The first killer's husband catches on to the fact his wife is the killer, and this furthers his budding insanity. His wife destroys the hat and coat she used in the initial killings.
B. A gangster decides to kill some of his enemies, but first decides to kill a bunch of his own men for no apparent reason, except perhaps to cover his tracks in future killings. Or as a Draconian punishment for their perceived failures, a punishment he has never dealt out to any of the other men who have failed him in the series. A serial killer for no apparent reason starts changing the gender of the killer he is studying in a way which exactly matches the delusions of a housewife who has apparently also been studying the killings. This housewife decides for no apparent reason to adopt a delusion in which she was responsible for some of the killings. To further this delusion, she goes out and buys clothing which exactly matches that of the killer, and a gun, only to take them home and burn them. Clothing which may or may not have been seen by the killer's sole surviving victim, who (I believe) was shot at from the dark. Again she bought the clothes for no apparent reason, since she could simply adopt, as part of her delusion, that she had already destroyed the evidence. Finally, an author decides to write a 12 issue mystery, but decides not to really present any answer to the mystery, just a "decoy" answer to throw readers off.
I'm sorry you don't like the ending to TLH. I'm sorry it didn't strike you as plausible.
Maybe you could've written a better ending to it.
But you haven't, yet.
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muthmaniac
I accept the answer, just not the same one that you and a few others have.
I for one don't believe Gilda did it. In reply to your two choices of explanation,
A. I remember when Gilda jumped up from her wheelchair she nearly fell and Harvey caught her. Secondly, if Gilda had been able to sneak out of their new house, where exactly was she keeping her Holiday outfit? Does she carry it, compacted into a ring?
She says at the end, "Not me." Then she tells all about his files. Exactly what other files do you think he had lying around that had nipple silencers and filed off serial numbers. I don't remember hearing any reference to past cases when nipples were used.
Oh I don't know,maybe in the Holiday case. And she probably figured that Harvey was the killer on New Years when He came home late and Alberto was dead the next morning.
And about the hair being wet thing. Holiday isn't shown wearing hat until after the April Fools issue. So not even we know what that Holiday was wearing, if anything, on their head.
I have typed so much and I am so confused right now that that is all I am going to go into for now.
Oh and one more thing, ALBERTO did it!!!!!
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DeForgeo
I agree. Can I sum things up a bit, for my choice? I may be just repeating things heard before, but forgive me. Once her house blew up, she'd have to find a pretty damn good hiding spot in her new, unfamilliar (or is it?) empty house. Also, Batman said that he/she can get pretty near without anyone noticing- how would Gilda get close (or am i repeating myself?) Gilda also has a pretty weak motive. And the scenes really seem lacking with Gilda as the killer, when the only reason most people would have suspected her is the last few pages of TLH #13
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yolo809
Gilda found out what Holiday wore she saw him in the papers on Labor Day - the banner headline "Holiday Killer Captured" probably caught her eye since she was already fabricating a secret life as a serial killer . . . .
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Killer Smile
This whole thread has become the dumbest thing I've ever read in my entire life!
For God's sake people, STOP MAKING UP STUPID IDEAS FOR WHAT YOU THINK HAPPENED! You are not damn writers!
Carmine did it, with Alberto!
Harvey did it alone!
Alberto did them all!
Gilda did one, then Harvey, then Alberto!
No, Catwoman did it!
And then, you go and fabricate INSANE evidence against the actual killers, just to satisfy your own need to be correct!
Noooo, GORDON DID IT! ALL THE PIECES ARE THERE!
CRIPES!
Didn't any of you read any of the series when it first came out? EVERYBODY SUSPECTED ALBERTO. As Jeph himself pointed out, "There is no body there is no body THERE IS NO BODY!" You've seen SCREAM, I've seen SCREAM, and two killers are 'in', and NOBODY SUSPECTS Gilda, the actual killer, and suddenly what was a good mystery with a standard ending takes an entirely more sinister turn, and becomes in some ways, a GREAT mystery.
You really want to take away the great mystery part, and be left with a simple answer to an obvious narrative device, be my guest.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, because it's the only way I like it...
I say GILDA DENT WAS THE ONE TRUE HOLIDAY.
NOW WHO IS HANG MAN!
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yolo809
I'd love to agree, it's only these three little problems:
- her means are shaky
- her motive is worse
- her opportunity is a joke
Other than that it makes a great ending to a murder mystery.
FWIW of course several of us are writers (I know I am anyway, have been working for 20 years now)
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Spidey-Freek
I'm a year behind TLH story, and up til now have only gotten to ish 6 (I know, what a dummy I am), but wasn't it the first issue that they showed the serial numbers being filed off the gun in seperate panels, and then having Gordon show up at Harvey's house with him in the basement or whatever filing what looked like a gun to me? Sorry I'm not more specific, I don't have the books in front of me, but I believe that Harvey was involved in all of the killings...
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DeForgeo
This topic is dying. . . Anyhoo, Harvey himself is not Holiday. It just looked like he was Holiday, very properly. There's a whole whack of stuff I could present, but I have to go to school (it's only 7:16 in the morning right now)
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Vacuumboy9
I know a lot of us have decided to be done with this debate, but I wanted to bring it to the top for new folks.
Also if anyone new wants to read up on the debate even more there's an old thread buried down there called Was Gilda Delusional that I started quite sometime ago dealing with the same subject.
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LarryF
I just got around to reading the most recent issue of DV, and a couple of points struck me.
--First, Calendar Man once again claims to know who Holiday was. I am sure Vacuumboy will come up with some far-fetched theory about how Calendar Man had an incentive to lie to Two-Face, but these theories are wearing more and more thin. If Calendar Man were just making up a story, why would he be willing to divulge the specific name of the killer? He was willing to spill the beans before Two Face cut him off. That is the LAST thing he would do if he were just trying to lead people on. He would want to give some vague, equivocal answer that could not be confirmed or negated. It is becoming increasingly difficult to believe Vacuumboy's theory that Calendar Man's switch between masculine and feminine pronouns for the killer in TLH was intended just to throw people off, and the fact it matched Gilda's delusion was a coincidence.
--Second, Two-Face himself doesn't want to talk about who Holiday was. As evidenced by the fact that he shut Calendar Man up before he could talk about it. This is consistent with my theory that Harvey figured out Gilda was in on the killings, this helped to push him over the edge, and this knowledge plays an on-going role in his psychosis.
--The author does not want to give a definitive answer (at least not yet). Regardless of who Holiday is, it is obvious the author is getting a kick out of the ongoing debate. This is evidenced by the melodramatic way in which the issue was presented in this issue, and the Joker saying "Ha!" after the issue was avoided.
--So it seems the author and I agree, Vacuumboy, that regardless of whether your theories about who Holiday was are off-base, the discussion has been worthwhile. It certainly has enriched my understanding of both series.
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Killer Smile
I believe that FOOLS was a more definite answer to the question that has, baffingly, bothered so many of you for so long.
Calendar Man knew that Gilda was Holiday, and Two-Face doesn't want the other freaks to know that. That much is shockingly clear, and made more so by this most recent revelation.
However, the Joker's "Ha!", to me, implies that he thinks that Harvey was, like Joker suspected, actually Holiday and Joker will therefore carry out the attempted devastation of Gotham City in issue eight WITHOUT Two-Face's blessing. We shall see.
Sorry I have been absent of late. This last set of days have been very, very dark for the Killer Smile.
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Dan Dreiberg
KILLER SMILE:
Sorry to hear about your dark days. Hope things get brighter.
On the topic, recall the moment at the end of Long Halloween when Gordon tells Harvey he has betrayed everything he believed in. Harvey's response (a smooth word balloon): Not everything. meaning he has not betrayed Gilda. Then Two-Face (jagged word balloon) drops the hint about two Holiday killers.
I would be happier if Harvey, not Two-face, cut off Calendar Man, but clearly both Harvey and Two-Face have kept the secret.
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Vacuumboy9
As I posted elsewhere, I feel that the confrontation can be taken in many different ways. Two-Face wants to keep Gilda's name sacred, OR Two-Face doesn't want it known that he committed some of the murders (since the Riddler, blabbermouth that he is, might spill the beans to Bats later), OR Two-Face was just peeved that Julian was going to discuss a dead issue even further when everybody knew that Alberto was Holiday since he confessed for God's sake and it's not the freaking question he asked in the first place...
I'm out of breath.
I like both interpretations of what the Joker's laugh might mean. I especially like to think that it was Jeph laughing at us, but Killer Smile's explanation makes more sense.
And about the fact that this confrontation proves that Day did for a fact know who Holiday was... well he could have been ready to say Holiday was Silver St. Cloud for all we know.
Nothing's definite.
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LarryF
Out of breath, Vacuumboy? While typing on a keyboard? I think you meant "out of arguments".
It is conceivable that Calendar Man did not know what was going on in TLH. It is conceivable that his switch from male to female genders in his comments in TLH was coincidental. It is conceivable that he was going to give some non-sense answer as to who Holiday was in the most recent issue of DV, despite the fact that he had a gun to his head and every incentive to tell Two Face he knew nothing if he did, in fact, know nothing. It is conceivable that the world's greatest detective, Batman, decided to waste time with a blithering idiot who knew nothing when he was trying to solve the mystery in TLH. It is conceivable that Gordon and Two-Face made the same, inexplicable mistake.
It is conceivable, but not likely.
It is true that nothing is definite. But some things are much more likely than others.
I guess I am not able to make the monumental leap of faith necessary to become an Albertist.
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Vacuumboy9
i still can't believe it's called a leap of faith to believe alberto. Gilda takes much more of a leap of faith in my opinion.
OK. What I meant by saying Julian might give a nonsensical answer is to call attention to the fact that HE'S CRAZY! HE WAS IN ARKHAM FOR GOODNESS SAKE! He might think he really does know who Holiday was, when in reality he could be clueless.
And if you reread TLH, Bats didn't waste too much time on this blithering fool. The first time he appears, Gordon and Bats are there to talk to Day, but when Day gets all loopy Bats drags Gordon out.
The second time he goes to see Day, Bats thinks Harv is Holiday. He's there 'cause he's grasping at straws hoping its not true. And again he pushes past Day's little games saying "tell me what you know" but not receiving an answer. He doesn't have the time to waste but he's at a loss and will try anything.
Consider this: who actually provides Bats with more valuable info in TLH, Riddler or Calendar Man?
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(Originally posted from Feb. 15, 2000, to Apr. 26, 2000, on the DC Message Boards.)
