DC Boards Postings--Was Gilda Irrational or Was She Holiday?
Part 1
Vacuumboy9
I have long been of the opinion that Gilda was not exactly in her right mind when she made those comments in the end of TLH #13 that stated that she did the first few killings. She obviously wasn't totally in her right mind because she believed that Harvey had done the rest of the killings and that she and Harvey were going to get back together. She made a statement in one sentence that she knew Harvey had taken over for her on New Year's Eve when he killed Alberto. Hey Gilda! Alberto didn't get killed!
In issue one, the workbenches of Holiday and Harvey are completely different. (Where and how would Gilda have gotten a gun anyway?)
In issue two, Gilda is unconscious with head injuries in the hospital, on an IV, with Harvey right there. How did she supposedly sneak out? And if you look at Holiday's hands there, they are big and meaty, not small like Gilda's are.
In issue three she is a wheelchair and shouldnt be up, let alone out walking and shooting someone.
Issue nine we see Harvey's workbench again and it is clearly different from Holiday's.
Issue ten in her conversation with Barbara Gordon, Gilda seems to be wishing for a way for her and Harvey to reunite. It's like she's already sowing the seeds for the fantasy in her mind in which she can act and save her marriage.
In the beginning of issue eleven, Gilda is accusatory with Harvey about his possibly being Holiday, not happy like she might be if she really wanted Roman out of the way so they could be together again. She is also surprised when he says that he brings evidence all the time, and she wouldn't be if she supposedly got the idea for the holiday killings from his files.
Plus the fact that the speech she gives at the end of ish 13 is to herself, as if trying to convince herself of the fantasy.
So here's what I think. After Harvey went nuts, Gilda couldn't cope, so she created this fantasy in her mind about her involvement in the holiday killings becuase her marriage had fallen apart and she was in denial. She was trying to convince herself that it wasn't over by building up this idea, based on the newly discovered fact that Harvey brought evidence home and her need to see a good reason in the very bad things he did, that she had actually killed some of them (been active instead of passive, transferring some of the blame for his crimes to herslef in her mind). It was all in her mind and the speech is her just trying to make it real for herself. She ends thinking that all is going to work out with them. How can that not be insane?
The truth is that Holiday was Alberto the whole time. Falcone benefited from all of the killings, even the ones that were family members. (It's business, not personal.) Alberto originally did it to helpthe family, publicly being humiliated by his father just a ruse to cover up his involvement. But Alberto took the humiliation personally and wanted to be viewed as a "freak" instead. But his father's death at the hands of another "freak" changed tings and that's why he had a change of heart in DV and tried to get released.
So what does everybody think? opinions, contrary or otherwise, are welcome.
Also, as just an aside, why was Alberto mentioned as a Harvard grad in issue one of TLH and in ish 13 he talked about going to Oxford?
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JephLoeb3
Vacuum:
Without it giving it too much importance or not, it is not unusual to attend both Harvard (or any university for that matter) and Oxford. The point was that by sending him off to Oxford, he was even further from his father.
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DarkKnight007
I think you're wrong about the "different workbench" stuff. I only have the h/c, so if the page #'s are off, I apologize.
Page 43: Holiday's bench. Look at the tools on the pegboard in the background.
Page 45, Panel 2: Harvey's bench. Again, check out the pegboard. Same tools, same positions.
As for your question of how Gilda got a gun...well, where do teens in gangs get theirs? Where does the Joker get all of his wonderful toys? This is Gotham City. You can get anything if it's illegal.
Sneaking out of a hospital/out of the wheel chair: anyone deranged enough to go out and kill people to make it a safer world to start a family in will do just about anything, including disobeying doctors' orders. Remind you of anyone with two big pointy ears on his cowl after a night in Dr. Thompkin's office? (Hey, Jeph, is she going to show up any where in DV?)
Anyone's hands can look big and meaty if they have more than one pair of gloves on. (Yeah, that's a stretch.) But how thick are the gloves - are they gloves used by skiers or by Batman?
Of course Gilda's irrational. Probably delusional. But she was Holiday.
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Vacuumboy9
Why? Why do you think she was Holiday? Because she TOLD you she was? That's really the only evidence we have to believe it.
There's no logic to it. It's gotta be a red herring and until I see "Proof" that it's true, I'll keep on disbelieving it.
And as for the pegboards, look again, chum.
They're the same tools alright, but not in the same order.
And we can only really go on the tools from ish one, because after that the house blew up.
(And I have the individual issues so my page numbers are different.)
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DarkKnight007
Good point.
Jeph, a little help here?
"Red herring?" I love it when people say that.
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Vacuumboy9
Personally I love it when people say "cretin" in real life. It's such a weird word, common in the print dialogue of a superhero villain, but not oftenused in real speech. It's so goofy sounding.
OK. I thought of something else today.
Pure forensic evidence why Gilda could NOT have done it.
Gilda could've went out and bought her .22s on her own (but don't get me started on how unlikely this idea is--how'd she know where to go? where'd she get the money? when she was wheelchair bound, when did she get the gun? and so on.)
It's possible that she did get them, but how likely is it she got the guns from the SAME GUY that Alberto later did? Not very. Alberto was having them specially made.
If Gilda did not buy this same type of gun from this same guy, then there would have been differences that the police would've been able to find from looking at the guns and at the bullets and at the holes the bullets made in the victims.
All .22s aren't exactly alike.
(Aside: anybody notice which gun Gordon has in the bag tacked to the bulletin board on the back cover of DV? It's the 4th gun. The New Year's gun that never killed anyone.)
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Sarah
I have to agree with Vacuumboy9. I don't think Gilda committed any of the Holiday murders. Neither do I think Alberto was the killer. I think it's always been Harvey, probably with help from Alberto. Harvey probably had a deal with Falcone, and Alberto was pressured into going along for the good of the family. With Falcone gone, Alberto wants to be released because he's a sitting duck behind bars. If he was helping someone commit the murders, he's now a liability, and will stand a good chance of being eliminated! Likewise, I don't think Harvey was abducted; I think he escaped and it's all part of an elaborate plan.
My sister went to Oxford for her Junior year in university, it's pretty common.
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Darth Sidious
You may be right Vacuum. I think this Gilda thing may have been some kindda easy way to end the Long Halloween. We were already confused by the Alberto/Two-Face problem, and the scenarist thought: What if...?
And this is how he made a killer out of her. You know, when you write a comic book, you need a deep end, something intense, something that makes readers feel lost or at least a scene that adds something interesting to the story. I think Loeb did it pretty well.
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Vacuumboy9
Meant to post this before about the pegboards in ish one of TLH but forgot.
p 35 of TLH ish one--panel two, we see behind the vice grips (from left to right) a hammer, a pair of pliers, two screwdrivers, and a wrench.
In panel five it's the bottom of a saw, a hacksaw below the bottoms of several different sized screwdrivers, a pair of needle nosed pliers, and a hammer below the bottom of a wrench.
These were Holiday's tools.
On p.37 we see Harvey's workbench. Hammer then hacksaw.
Not the same order as Holiday's.
(Of course he coulda moved them...)
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Carr
-The fact that Gilda did it is consistent with Calendar Man's constant switching from "he" to "she". However, this is not very strong evidence either way, since it was never revealed how Calendar Man got his information, aside from studying the newspapers.
-People rearrange their workbenches all the time. Especially if you're constantly taking down tools, etc. to kill people with. Big deal.
-The idea that Alberto was a dupe for Two-Face, who, in turn, had a deal with Falcone makes no sense. Why would Alberto and Falcone have the conversation they had in jail in TLH? Also, it's inconsistent with Two-Face's motivations throughout the series.
In the last issue, Two Face ruminates over the fact he killed two people. Why would this be a big deal if he had already killed several others? How would any of the last speech with Batman and Gordon make sense?
It's a better explanation that Two Face wanted Falcone destroyed for the evil he did to Gotham City, that he was precisely the law and order nut he claimed to be, and he ultimately figured out that his wife was responsible for some of the killings. He could not handle this, and this was partially responsible for him going over the deep end.
-Also, if Alberto was being played by his father, then why didn't he take the deal his father wanted him to take, plea guilty to killing Morino and get off the hook for the other murders?
-As for the guns being from the same dealer - We only know that someone had an arrangement to buy a gun a month from a single dealer. We don't know when this arrangement began, and we don't know what information Sofia traced to the gun dealer. Alberto could have entered this arrangement after the first two murders, when he realized that he had a good opportunity to go on a killing spree.
-I have another question. I may have missed something. Who killed Milos, Roman's bodyguard? I was under the impression that Gilda only performed the Thanksgiving and first Halloween murders. Did she do this one as well? If not, why did Alberto kill his father's bodyguard? Was Milos plotting against Falcone?
-A couple other points on TLH:
What's the motivation for all of the villains ganging up on Falcone at the end? I understand why Two-Face is there, and Catwoman, and Solomon Grundy (who at this point, is probably just following Two Face). And the Joker doesn't need much of a motivation to do anything. But what about the Mad Hatter, Poison Ivy, and the Scarecrow? These three were being PAID by Falcone, right?
-Did Two-Face bribe them away from Falcone? We know Harvey Dent is just scraping by. Did he take some of the untraceable cash from Falcone's warehouse before setting it on fire? That's a lot for Batman to have missed.
-Finally, was Catwoman's motivation for following Falcone around ever clearly established? I got the feeling it was more than just hanging around in the hopes of seeing Batman. Was there a tie to something in Batman: Year One that I missed? It's been a while since I read B:YO.
I don't need to have everything spelled out by the author. One of the joys of a well-written mystery is figuring things out on your own. But I was just wondering if I missed some obvious point that I was supposed to catch.
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Michael79
I'm pretty sure that Gilda was insane. A lot happened to her and her husband over those 12 months. As for her explanation at the end of TLH? I'm pretty sure the explosion in her home coupled with Harvey's incident drove her batty. I have never believed that she could leave the hospitals to commit those murders.
Of course, this is coming from the guy who thinks that Janice is Gilda. Still, while I don't think that any huge unanswered questions from TLH will be answered in DV, I have a gut feeling that Gilda will show up in one way or another.
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Carr
Sorry. My mistake. I just realized Gilda confessed to killing Milos on Christmas eve, as well. That part of my post has been answered.
I still don't buy this theory that Gilda was delusional and made up the whole story about the first three killings.
I think the fact Gilda went overboard gives Harvey Dent one of the most interesting motivations I have seen in comics for going insane, and this whole "Gilda made it up" theory kinda misses the point of that whole character arc.
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Vacuumboy9
My take on Calendar Man is that he was just trying to get some attention for himself, and really had no clue who was doing it.
Honestly think about it. If Gilda DID do it, how the heck would Julian Day know, all tucked away safely in Arkham? He was just afraid of being overshadowed.
And the deal with the guns--the police i'm sure did forensic tests on the guns and the bullets since it's sort of part of standard procedure (even "ten years ago" or wherever in continuity this story takes place). They would have been abe to tell if the early guns were a different make than the others. But they're not. They were all identical.
And I think the "Gilda made it up" thing definitely is in tune with her character, a woman who was going crazy when her husband was slipping away from her but who really lost her marbles when he went psycho-killer and she realized they would never have that life she wanted. So she created a fantasy in her head that made things all better. "I'm a killer too," she told herself. "They'll let him out soon and we can start that family we always wanted."
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Carr
The guns were left at the scene of the crime. It was never alleged that the same gun was responsible for each killing. So the guns were NOT identical, and there is no way forensics tests indicating different guns were used each time would have meant anything.
I don't see how Gilda being delusional is any more in character for her than her being homicidal.
You still seem to miss the point of the whole HARVEY DENT character... caught between his rabid thirst for justice and the knowledge that his wife is a killer.
And if Calendar Man is clueless, how come Batman, et al. keep going to him? Obviously, they trust his insight into what's going on, even if it's just gleaned from the papers. And why would he HAPPEN to come up with a bid for attention that HAPPENED to involve switching the genders of the killer? I think you're stretching this pretty thin.
I think TLH is meant to be a complete story. I think some threads, like Catwoman's motivations, were intentionally left open, but the core of the story, the murder mystery, was supposed to be resolved in the 13 issues, and I don't expect Jeph to rewrite that aspect of the story in DV.
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Vacuumboy9
the whole deal with Calendar man is just a bid for attention. he said so himself in issue twelve. the switching genders thing could just be because he doesn't know who it is. and still how in the heck could he know who gilda is?
and no it was never alleged that it was the same gun but it was obviously the same TYPE of gun and if they were made by different dealers the police would have been able to tell. Even if the gun was left at the scene, the police would have to do forensic tests to make sure that the gun and the bullet matched. and that would lead them to see if the guns were of the same type. if they had been manufactured by different folk, the markings left on the bullet by the barrel would be different.
And Harvey did NOT know Gilda was a killer ('cause she wasn't.) He doesn't even know who Gilda IS anymore.
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Carr
At the beginning of Chapter 8, Calendar Man specifically emphasizes the change in gender as he's talking to Batman. He's not trying to cover his bases. He's trying to draw Batman's attention to the fact there is a female killer and a male killer.
You still haven't explained why Calendar Man in his "bid for attention" happens to come up with a theory that exactly matches when Ms. Dent claims to have stopped killing:
After Alberto takes over for Ms. Dent, Calendar Man says "He's making quite a name for herself". He says "You said you would have caught her by February", referring to Batman's comment when Ms. Dent was still the killer. But he uses the word "he" to describe the person responsible for the later killings.
How does Calendar Man know Ms. Dent? How does he know ANYTHING about the killings? He's analyzing the papers, and he has figured out that the earlier killings were done by a woman, and the later ones were done by a man.
Also, the Thanksgiving and Christmas killings were of people loyal to Roman, and none of the others were. If the same person, loyal to Roman, performed all of the killings, how come he killed some of Roman's own men?
Is there ANYTHING in TLH which indicates forensics tests were done, or that the tests did NOT show a change in the weapon?
You are placing a lot of emphasis on clues that just were not given in the series.
So the police thought the killer changed gun dealers. So what? Given the other similarities in MO, they would not have pieced together that it was two killers.
Two-Face has figured it out by the end. That's why he tells Gordon and Batman there are two killers. That's why he says at the end that he has not betrayed everything he believed in. He's covering for Gilda. And now he can't remember who Gilda is. The conflict between his knowledge of her guilt and his thirst for justice was so great that he blocked her memory out.
And where did Gilda come up with a hat, coat, and taped gun to burn at the end of the series? If these are simply belongings of Harvey that she has placed unusual significance upon in her delusional state, wouldn't she want to KEEP them to corroborate her delusion?
At some point you have to take the solution that provides the simplest explanation for the information given. Your explanation does not.
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Vacuumboy9
I DO accept the solution that is simplest. That Gilda was Holiday is not it. I've stated why I thought so before, but to briefly recap:
How did she get out of the hospital (where she was on an IV with Harvey sitting next to her and on machines that were monitored by duty nurses) to do the Thanksgiving killing, a murder of five armed people before any of them could draw (including Mickey "the Mink" who was in mid-draw when killed) and shoot her? And on Christmas how did she kill Milos if she was wheelchair-bound?
Where on earth did she get the guns?
How big are her hands? (see issue two--and i don't buy the gloves comment because the whole reason the guns were taped was so that there would be no fingerprints. Why would she wear gloves then, and several pair at that?)
How did Gilda not know about the fact that Harvey brought evidence home and then later say she did?
Plus all her other delusional comments in the end of ish 13. (That Harvey did all the other killings, that Alberto was dead, that they would get back together.)
Calendar Man: You make a huge leap of faith in thinking that an insane man's ramblings actually have bearing on what occured in the series. Honestly what help was he to the case? None! The only thing he did was vaguely suggest that they should use Maroni as bait to draw Holiday out with the words "you have something that he wants". This statement really could mean about anything, but Bats decides to use Maroni as bait.
Let's see--issue three Calendar Man is already using the he/she thing BEFORE the supposed Gilda/Alberto switch. Now the only way he could know at this point (or really any other point in the whole series) that there might be two killers is if he has Frank Black-esque magical profiling powers, and by READING A NEWSPAPER he is somehow able to transport himself into the killer's mind. And he doesn't! He's just vying for attention, or as his comments to Bats in issue eight show he might be trying to arrange a release. As for how this idea just so happens to coincide with the delusional rantings of a madwoman, my answer is just that: coincidence. And a true lack of knowledge of the identity/gender of the killer.
As for Alberto committing the early murders, there is a possible motive in ALL the cases. Johnny viti tried to have Carmine killed, so Johnny dies. Thanksgiving we have the Irish gang, who put out the hit on Harvey... and failed. Punishment for failing the Falcone family--death. (Also, have you ever seen Casino? At the end of that film the head mob guys have all kinds of loyal people killed, just in case they might become unloyal and talk. Same situation here.)
Milos is a little bit harder to justify, but I think I can. On New Year's, Carmine says to Maroni something about all the blood being on his side of the table so far, sort of accusing Maroni of being involved in the murders. It steers the suspicion away from him even further later that night when Alberto "dies." So Milos was killed on Christmas... as an alibi. Simply so the Roman could say "all these people who died were in my family" and take suspicion off himself. He in fact actually says this to Bats in issue twelve.
and no, there is nothing that in TLH that suggests that actual forensic tests were done on the guns (that I can recall offhand). I simply assume that the Gotham Police would follow STANDARD PROCEDURE in investigating a murder/serial killings. And no they never said that the guns weren't of different types, but I think if they had been it would have been the sort of evidence that was so important to the case that they would have included it.
If YOU were under the delusional impression that you and your significant other had killed around twenty people, would you keep evidence that could be used against you or would you get rid of it?
Where she got the gun though is beyond me. Maybe it was some of that "evidence" that she had recently found out that Harvey brought home all the time.
Believing Alberto did it all IS the easiest solution. Otherwise, Bats would have looked for a impler one. The entire Gilda theory is based on leaps in logic and stands on shaky ground.
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Carr
I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree (though I have enjoyed the argument).
Apparently my "huge leap of faith" in believing "an insane man's ramblings" actually have a bearing on what was going on was shared by Batman, who went to Calendar Man himself to look for clues.
Yes, Calendar Man started using the "she" pronoun before Alberto started doing the killings. However, he did so tentatively. Later, he had figured out, I propose from the papers, what was really going on, and he used the he and she pronouns very precisely and very intentionally, and in a way which precisely matches the Gilda theory. That is one HUGE coincidence.
And you still haven't explained why, even if the guns were different later than earlier, and even if the police did the tests necessary to figure this out, they would have automatically concluded they were dealing with two killers, or that we, the reader, would have been told of this clue.
I am not arguing the police didn't follow standard procedure. I'm arguing that you are speculating about the results of forensics tests that the reader was never told about. Who knows what the results were? I don't. You don't. So it's hardly "proof" of anything.
I don't buy your "motives" for the Thanksgiving killings or the Milos killing, either. These were the second and third killings. It's awful early in the series of killings to start killing people just to throw people off the trail. There isn't much of a trail yet. And the Thanksgiving killings were performed AFTER the killers had ALREADY been interrogated by the police, AFTER they had ALREADY proven their loyalty to Roman.
The fact remains that all of the murders after New Years have one, common motivation: to eliminate enemies of the Roman. (Except the Mother's Day killing to cover his tracks). None of the murders prior to New Years have that motivation.
As for Gilda getting out of the wheelchair, she was out of the wheelchair as soon as they got home. Who's to say she ever needed it?
You seem to be placing a lot of significance on the size of the killer's hands in issue #2, and, frankly, I don't see it. They look like normal sized hands to me. And even if the tape on the guns prevented fingerprints ON THE GUNS, gloves would still be necessary to prevent fingerprints to other surfaces (e.g., the door handle to the restaurant in Issue #2). And at any rate, it's apparent the killer, whoever it is, IS wearing gloves in issue #2, and in issue #1, where the killer is handling the gun next to the baby bottle nipple.
And where DID Gilda get the gun if she weren't the killer? The only other gun brought there before was taken back by Harvey after Gilda found it.
I think you have an interesting theory, and, again, I've enjoyed arguing about it. But I still don't buy it.
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Vacuumboy9
Yeah, I also have enjoyed arguing with you (and I wish other people would pick up on our topics and join in), but the whole agree to disagree deal is going to have to be the way it is. I still can't buy Gilda being Holiday. It's just too big a jump for me. And I don't know how to explain my theories any further to get you to agree.
But I always thought that Bats was going to Calendar Man because he had no other clues. He thought that Harvey was Holiday and was denying it and so was grasping at straws for any other possibility. Besides, I think we're prolly putting too much significance on Calendar Man. He's in three or four issues for a total of five or six pages. The Scarecrow really plays a more important role in the whole series. He's not an insane genius like Hannibal Lecter; he's just a crazy guy.
But you got me on the gloves. Makes sense about the doorknob and stuff. Just makes me wonder why the guns were taped then.
And really that the killer wore gloves means nothing. Remember "if it don't fit, you must acquit"?
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DF2507
Hi guys,
I know I'm coming in a little late but I just got down reading Batman: The Long Halloween for the first time earlier today. Anyway, I don't know if it helps or not (or if you guys mentioned it and I missed it..) but in Chapter 12: Labor Day, Batman goes to visit Gilda Dent and notices tiny metal filings, GUN METAL, on Harvey's workbench. Now Batman being the Worlds Greatest detective and all (and having studied this short of thing) I'm sure he knows what GUN metal looks like. Anyway...I have to say that I agree with Carr. All the evidence seems to point toward Gilda actually having commited the first few murders.
Though....maybe she did break down and is just believing a dream. If she is...then did Harvey committ the first murders? Maybe Gilda found out that Harvey did and couldn't handle it so she started to believe that she did it....or maybe its the other way around...hmmmmm...
Food for thought.
DF2507
" I lean more toward Carr's theory though."
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Spoon
Of course Gilda is/was irrational, or, delusional. I do think she has something to do w/the murders. All along she wanted Harvey and Herself to have time together and have a baby. Harvey was obsessed w/the Falcone family. Bats says at one point that he went to the house to find her, and, she's no longer living there. The woman did not just fall off the face of the earth.
She went thru alot--a husband possessed by his work (crawling around outside while they were having a party--for petes' sake). Harvey was never home. She gets blown up. She's scared. Harvey/Two-Face---why can't she have more then one part to her personality.
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Carr
Okay, Vacuumboy, now you've got me thinking.
Jeph, et al. has recently pointed out in a post that Alberto admitted to ALL of the killings. And he specifically refused to clarify whether Alberto was actually involved at all in the killings in TLH.
Now my ears are bleeding.
And they never DID explain how Harvey's hair got wet even though he was wearing a hat.
Now, I still believe there were two killers, and that Alberto committed the later ones, and Gilda committed the earlier ones. I'm just a little less committed to this theory.
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DarkVigilante
Ummm, people. You know what I'm thinking, I'm thinking that what you talk about on Gilda looks quite suspectious, ooh my head is shaking....suspectious, very suspectious....But does this mean that there are THREE holiday killers on TLH?
Gilda haven't been testify on the holiday murders since after TLH #13, but then everybody blame it on Alberto, but with the death of Al's father then after a couple of months out of prison and the kidnap or escaping of Two-face and the murder scene of the late Chief O' Hara *ACK!!* uhh..cough...the.. the.......
.........
(It's too true that Alberto did not do the killings in the first place on October)
too true
too true...
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Gab
Just a quick thought,
On one of the other posts, there has been a lot of discussion about the back covers of DV, specifically about the gun hanging from the bulletin board with other evidence. Jeph even made a few quick posts saying that the gun was troublesome, yet easily explained. Could Gordon somehow have gotten the gun from Gilda?
A really, really off-the-wall idea is that Gilda is one of the DV killers and Porter is the other, both trying to win over Harvey's affection. I know there's a lot of possible holes in this idea, but the "two can play at this game" and the non-gender "knows when you've been bad or good" messages provide at least the possibility that Gilda initiated the killings, then Porter tried to keep up. The letters left are surely clues; possibily a message to Two-face himself? Like I said weak (the killer would require a lot of strength and skill it sounds like for the hangings) but maybe Gilda explains the gun?
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The Scarlet Edge
Okay, I FINALLY read The Long Halloween and I've got some ideas. First I don't think Gilda did any of the killings I think she was just going insane. (Where is she in DV anyway?) Also Jeph said there was a simple explanation for the gun on the back cover. I believe it is Two Face's gun that he used to kill The Roman and Vernon. Also, why is Sophia's scar on the wrong side of her face? I don't think Tim would make a mistake like that. One of the hangman notes (can't remember which. i think #2) was written on Harvey Dent's stationary. If you remember, someone stole Harvey's files (Porter?) so maybe the killer is the same person.
PS: Thanks Jeph and Tim for a great read with TLH. (This mb thing is awesome. Where else could you thank great creators and get answered back most of the time?)
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Killer Smile
Gilda is Holiday.
Gilda is Holiday.
GILDA IS HOLIDAY.
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Vacuumboy9
I've been poring over TLH in the process of working on my new TLH webpage and am now more convinced than ever that Gilda was out of her gourd and that Alberto did them all.
Most of my reasoning has been posted before but I've got a few new additions.
I've complained over and over that Gilda could not have gotten up from her place in the hospital on thanx without the whole hospital knowing about it, since she was on monitor, and plus she was just too feeble to get up at all. But IF she could have, why would she have picked the Irish gang as her target and how would she know where they were?
Alberto would easily know where they were if Carmine told him. And Carmine could have wanted them dead because A) they might change thier minds later (like Jefferson Skeevers did in Yr. One) and testify or B) because they failed and Dent was still alive.
And as for why Milos got killed, he had failed at his job a lot lately too. Bats and Cats broke in on Johnny's wedding day and Joker had broke in just minutes before. Not too good at guarding Carmine's body was he?
On Thanksgiving the Dents had no house. So how did Gilda file off the serial no. without a workbench, vice grips, and a sander? And on Christmas how did she manage to do it if they had just moved in?
As for the gun metal shavings-- there is a point at which Gilda finds a Holiday gun and is afraid that Harvey is Holiday. He brushes her off with the fact that it is merely evidence and he brings home evidence all the time. (Aside--might THAT gun have produced the shavings, and Harvey filed it off for some unknown reason?) But Gilda is SURPRISED that he brings evidence home.
Now being driven insane by the fact that she thinks her husband is a killer, she begins her delusional state, goes and buys a .22, files off the serial no. a la Holiday (which has been in the papers so she would know about it by now) to feed her delusions that she and Harvey did it together and all will be well.
Then Bats fins the metal shavings. Then Gilda burns the gun.
(OK. It's a bit of a stretch, but it does explain where Gilda's gun came from... unless it was just more of Harvey's evidence lying aorud the house like the first gun she found was.)
Batman is shown doing actual forensic research on the guns in the April Fool's issue. If he HAD found out that there were different guns, he would have mentioned it at some point, esp. after one of Holiday's victims became the guy who made the guns. They would have found the guy who made the guns, said either "this guy made all the guns" or said "this guy made all the guns after New Year's... huh, that's odd that two different gun makers were used" and then it would have become a major clue that the first few guns had a different manufacturer, so much so that it would have HAD to have been mentioned on panel.
So Carmine in my opinion backed alberto as Holiday. All the killings have a clear motive for the Falcone family. Carmine kept up a front of Alberto's non-involvement in front of everyone (even Sofia) so that he would not be suspected. Carmine mentioned to Maroni on New Year's that all the blood was on his side to make it look like he was NOT backing Holiday when he really was. Carmine told Carla to go up on deck because he KNEW alberto was going to fake his own death and wanted a witness. Carmine makes a comment in his head then about only being able to trust Alberto.
April Fool's he hired the Riddler just so people would think he was in search of Holiday and when Riddler came up with the right answer in the end "Carmine" he laughed it off and threw Riddler out, telling Sofia to hurry back. He didn't want Sofia to see Alberto in that alley. In later issues Sofia is clearly in search of answers (Chong's Tea House) about Holiday so she could not have known.
Why was Riddler spared? Because Alberto wanted to be caught eventually, so he could throw it back in his father's face like he did in ish 13.
gilda had NOTHING to do with it. It was all alberto.
----------------
Killer Smile
Gilda was Holiday. She said so herself at the end of the book. Simple as that. You're beating a dead horse.
GILDA IS HOLIDAY.
Oh well...at least you're not convinced she's the hangman killer now.
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muthmaniac
gilda did say she was holiday, and Two-Face did say there were two holiday killers, but he didn't say who. I think he was that Harvey did kill and Two-Face was telling on him. I hope that Jeph is reading all of this and plans to put in this story who the killer was.
As for Gilda shaving off the serial numbers, who said that the guy making the guns wasn't hired by Gilda? But in my opinion, she didn't kill anyone. Looking through TLH it shows two distinct hands of the killers and i don't believe either were small enough to be gilda's. Granted Alberto's hands are a little feminine but not to be confused with a womans.
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Vacuumboy9
Hey Killer Smile...
I'm Holiday.
I just told you I was Holiday, so it must be true, huh?
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SIMPLE SHERLOCK
Vacuumboy9, if you were the author of TLH I'd believe you. I believe in Jeff Loeb. He said Gilda was Holiday. TLH is meant to stand on its own. We just gotta accept it. I'm with Killer Smile.
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The Scarlet Edge
Hey, by the way, O.J. said he was innocent. Words don't mean much.
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barry
Vacuumboy9,
Your theory about Carmine backing Alberto in his killings is interesting and well thought out.
But I gotta agree with some of the others,TLH is a stand alone story and DV is not a direct sequel,as Jeph has stated somewhere.
Anybody know where Gilda and Harvey first met?Maybe when they were studying law together.Heck,Janice Porter could be their old class mate.Personally there are so many possiblities in DV,and you would have to be a rocket scientist to figure all of them out.
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Vacuumboy9
The thing is that Jeph did not tell us Gilda did it. GILDA did. And there is such a thing as an untrustworthy narrator. I don't believe her.
If Alberto did NOT do them all, then how did he know that faking his death would work? If Holiday had been someone else at first, then he wouldn't have known that his trick would have worked. TWO people then would have appeared to die on New Year's and subsequently two people would be killed every holiday.
This is yet another reason why I can't buy the Gilda theory. It is too much of a coincidence that her killings ended and his began at the same time.
He did them all. That's why he knew that faking his death would work: because if he had just decided to start on New Year's, then he had no way of knowing that someone else would not also be killed that night. It only works if he knew no one else be, and that can only be true if he had done the earlier ones himself.
And there is no way he could have survived a plunge into the harbor in the middle of January without help.
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Carr
This is getting tiresome.
Gilda was Holiday. TLH is a complete story.
Gilda WAS suprised Harvey brought home the gun. She didn't know Harvey would pick up where she left off, and she later became convinced that he did.
As for the guns, you are still making huge assumptions based on information that was never given. I'm sure there were lots of aspects of the investigation we, the readers, were never told about. I'm sure there were a lot of clues as to what actually happened that we, the reader were never told about.
There are things that are left out, not because they are not significant, but because there is just no way to include every significant detail in a coherent story.
Moreover, who's to say the gun tests you suggest would tell us anything? We already know the same gun was not used in each killing, because the guns were left at the scene. Gilda presumably used the same type of gun for the early killings. If Alberto wanted it to look like one killer was at work, he would presumably try to use the same type of gun. This would take some doing, but he DID specially order the guns, didn't he?
You have yet to give a convincing motive for the bodyguard's death if Alberto did it. Or for that matter, the Irish gang. Again, they had already proven their loyalty to Falcone. You are REALLY stretching it when you suggest he thought they might change their mind, and you are stretching it even further when you suggest Alberto was just trying to throw people off the trail.
I'm with the camp that believes what Jeph told us. Yes, it was Gilda that said the words, not Jeph, but Jeph planned for Gilda to say those words then, at the end of the story, and he did so for a purpose. I'm sorry, but it just makes no sense to write a 13 issue mystery and not directly provide the solution to the mystery in it.
Oh, and as for the "two deaths" problem:
Remember, Alberto allegedly died on New Year's EVE. The actual holiday for January would be New Year's DAY. However, once Gilda heard of Alberto's "death" on New Year's Eve, she assumed, incorrectly, that Harvey had picked up where she left off, and so she stopped killing. Problem solved.
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Vacuumboy9
You missed my point about the two deaths thing. If there was someone other than Alberto who was Holiday, then what was Alberto's rationale in faking his own death?
"I'm going to pretend to die so I can now become Holiday... but the real Holiday is still out there and probably won't stop killing, but oh well. The police won't think anything's odd about my death if the real Holiday kills someone else. Besides I'm sure that the real Holiday is probably very tired by now and wants to give up the murders."
It does not make sense.
I wish I could get you to see my point with the Irish gang. It didn't matter that they were loyal. There was a possibility that they might not always be. And so they had to die. That's a typical thing in mobster movies. As i said before, take Casino for example.
Yes TLH stands alone. But it can stand alone and Gilda can still be not telling the truth in the end.
Alberto confessed to all the murders. Gilda confessed to some of the murders, and said Harvey did the rest. You can believe only one of them. I believe Alberto.
It has long since been tiresome, since no one seems to understand what an untrustworty narrator is. We can't believe what everyone says. We can't necessarily believe Gilda. We can't necessarily believe Calendar Man when he says he knows who Holiday is (WHICH HE NEVER DOES SAY THAT--HE ONLY LEADS BATMAN ON IN BELIEVING THAT HE KNOWS). Characters can lie.
One last thing I want to say to everybody--I'm really enjoying this discussion and I'm not actually mad at any of you over our disagreement on some theories. But I do ask that you confine your Gilda or not gilda discussion to THIS topic so if people want to ignore it they can. I don't want to inadvertantly drive people away.
Thanks.
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Carr
I see your point on the "two deaths" problem, but I guess I don't see how it's a problem. Alberto faked his own death so that he could start killing people who weren't loyal to his father. He made it look like Holiday did it. If two people died on New Years Eve, it would simply look like Holiday was picking up his pace. If two people died on every Holiday thereafter, it would just look like Holiday was picking up his pace. Why would Alberto have to know that Holiday would stop when he started?
And I apologize about the "This is tiresome" comment. I, too, am enjoying the discussion, and I do not want to discourage you or anyone else from posting their views.
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tracks
I too think that Gilda was behind the early killings. It really makes the series that much more eye opening. But as for facts... the way that I interpreted the first few issues was that the first and third murders took place the day before Halloween and Christmas respectively while the Thanksgiving murder actually took place on the day(despite the Irish gang mentioning "this thansgivin' eve"). Later murders always happened on holidays. Why? Because Gilda didn't care about the statement, she was just trying to help out her husband. The next killer(probably Alberto) need to follow the pattern of killing on holidays because psychos need to follow their patterns (An interesting side note: who would consider a birthday a relative except for a relative). So I think Gilda just happened to kill on or near the dates in question and the second killer made it into an obsession.
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Carr
You raise an interesting point that I had missed about the dates. However, I'm not sure Alberto was a psycho. I mean, he was, but I am not sure he was as irrational as you imply. I think he needed to follow the pattern in order to misdirect people into thinking there was just one killer. Gilda killed near holidays. Alberto saw the pattern, wanted it to look like one killer, to throw off investigators, and so he continued to kill on holidays.
As for why Alberto claimed to have committed all of the crimes: Once he's caught for 8 or so murders, the few more do not really cost him that much more. They reinforce his notoriety, his fame. Alberto, who had always been belittled by the family, then had an image of success (of sorts). Claiming responsibility for all of the killings enhanced that image.
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Killer Smile
Gilda was Holiday.
After that, it was either Alberto or Harvey...probably Harvey until August 2nd. That's when Holiday stopped leaving holiday clues.
Did Harvey actually shoot Alberto with intent to kill? Did Alberto actually fake his death or not?
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Carr
I strongly disagree with Killer Smile. I don't think Harvey was involved with any of the killings whatsoever until he killed in the last issue.
As Harvey said, there were two Holiday killers, not three.
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Vacuumboy9
Alberto stopped leaving clues on Aug. 2 'cuz on the next holiday, HE GOT CAUGHT BEFORE HE COULD LEAVE A CLUE!!
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Killer Smile
Well, Vacuumboy...what would YOU leave as a clue on Labor Day?
Not to mention, why didn't the little Oxford genius leave anything behind on his father's birthday?
Y'know, I'm pretty sure that Gilda did the first three, Harvey shot Alberto, Alberto laid low like a cowering simp, then waited patiently until his continuing existence was to be revealed by Jasper Dolan. Bang, see ya.
A lot of people think Harvey didn't 'become' Two-Face until the acid...well, that's absolutely wrong. A single act doesn't cause mental illness. Harvey was crazy(fairly obviously, in a lot of TLH) for a long, long time.
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Carr
I agree Harvey was mentally ill before the acid. I just don't think he was homicidal before the acid. I think you're right that a single disfiguring incident doesn't cause mental illness. With a writer as sophisiticated as Jeph, it doesn't even cause "comic book mental illness" (such as the sort that almost every Dick Tracy villain suffers from). But a single incident can push someone over the edge. A single incident can make someone who is already unstable homicidal. The speeches Harvey gave at the end of TLH just don't make sense if he was homicidal before then. His comment to Batman that there are TWO holiday killers just doesn't make sense if there were three. And it makes no sense to kill the coroner unless the coroner was in on the plot to cover Alberto's death. Therefore, there WAS a plot to cover Alberto's death, it WAS staged, and it was NOT Two-Face's doing.
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Vacuumboy9
I can't believe how far this topic has come, that I started it four months ago and it's still going strong, even if the topic of conversation has changed from did gilda do it to did alberto do it?
and holiday did leave a clue on the Roman's birthday.
a giant filing cabinet drawer.
sorry. actually i had never realized that there was no clue left that day and I apologize for my haste.
What clue would I leave on Labor Day? Somebody in one of the lettercols suggested white shoes...
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alitaki
well I picked up DV on a whim and ended up chasing down all the issues and now am rabid about the series, so I went out and picked up the TLH trade paperback and then came here to match wits with all of you slueths. So here's where I stand on all this...
-Gilda as the murderer just doesn't sit well with me. Its more of a gut feeling than anything else but I just don't see her as being the killer. Those last few pages seemed far too easy an explanation after such an elaborate story was told in the previous chapters. I can't give ya any explanation as to why I feel this way. Its just a gut feeling.
-The story as a whole is a good story but NOT a good mystery. It was too coincidental in certain points and there were too many loose ends for my taste. Sure they allow for a continuation of the story but its not good mystery writing to leave too many loose ends. Catwoman, Julian Day, Gilda (in my opinion this is a loose end). there are too many variables that don't add up. for instance -
I)If Gilda thought Harvey was continuing the killings then why didn't she ever talk to him about it? If she was truely trying to save her marriage by eliminating work for Harvey why wouldn't she share with him what she did when she realized he was continuing the killings. The family that kills together stays together and all that...
II)The whole son craving for fathers attention between Alberto and Carmine doesn't make sense if its Gilda/Harvey commiting the murders. But if it really was Alberto trying to show up his dad, then why the admission at the end by Gilda and her thinking it was Harvey continuing the killings?
My point is that the writers were trying too hard to confuse us and send us down wrong paths that the mystery itself became too muddled. Flame me if ya's want but thats my view on the story in general.
Anyway my opinion on who Holiday is or are is this - Harvey and Alberto. My logic on this -
Harvey had the Roman's book of dates and names. Alberto had access to weapons and the victims. Both had motive - Harvey wanted to bring down the Roman no matter what. Alberto wanted to prove to his dad that he wasn't useless and should not be kept out of family business. So Alberto and Harvey team up and go on their spree. Harvey's wet hair? Well Bats was part right, in that Harvey did go out ot the boat but not to kill Alberto but to help him fake his death. Its a bit of a stretch to imagine Harvey and Alberto working together but not by that much. Certainly not more than believing Gilda was involved. That theory really does not sit well with me.
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Metatron
Ack. Jeph Loeb answered a lot of these questions in a Wizard article. That article made me appreciate the TLH a lot more, because it pointed out a lot clues that I overlooked, making me appreciate how well written a murder mystery this was. Anyway, I can't find it, but rereading TLH helped remember some of the stuff.
Gilda committed the first three killings, just like she said. Notice that the Roman's men are the targets, as Joker points out to Maroni when he accuses him of being Holiday. The killings at this point favor Maroni.
Alberto sees an opportunity and fakes his own death on New Year's Eve. Gilda sees Harvey come home late and assumes that he murdered Alberto. She stops the killings, assuming that Harvey is now taking out the Falcone family.
Alberto starts out as Holiday on Valentine's Day, his birthday. Notice that from this point on, all the Holiday murders are directed (with three exceptions) at Maroni and his men, the Roman's main rival. The Holiday murders now favor the Falcones. Alberto is out to prove he is capable of handling the family business, not weaken his father. Batman explains the two murders that don't fit this pattern. The coroner was murdered because he knew that the body found was not Alberto. Alberto was covering his trail. Carla was murdered because she was digging into the coroner's files and would have discovered that Alberto was not dead. Again, Alberto was covering his trail. I still don't know what the deal was with the Riddler though.
There were three Holiday killers. When Two-Face is caught, Gordon accuses Harvey of betraying everything he believes in, and his reply is "Not everything". Harvey had figured out that Gilda was the initial Holiday killer. He tries to implicate himself as Holiday, in case Batman and Gordon figure out that Alberto wasn't responsible for all the killings. Reread Gilda and Harvey's conversation in the beginning of Chapter 11, August. He is angry that Gilda is down in the basement. When Gilda asks about the gun, he replies, "We're ALL working on this "Holiday" thing. It has to stop." Up to this point, he has been unconcerned with the Holiday murders, completely focused on taking down Falcone. He suspects her of being Holiday. When Gilda asks about him taking home evidence, Harvey states he does it all the time and she is concerned. Not concerned that he is Holiday, but concerned that he had brought home the weapons from the first three Holiday murders and realized that the filing had been done with the tools in the basement.
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alitaki
Metatron- Jeph said all that in the article or are you just speculating from reading the story? Because if you're getting that from the story, I must be reading a different copy of TLH cuz I don't see that. If you are getting it only from the story then you're speculating.
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Killer Smile
Metatron, I could kiss you!
And, folks, that's that.
With Batman pointing out in Dark Victory's latest chapter, Lost, that Gilda Dent has left Gotham, never to return, that should finally put down this argument.
And Stephen...JEPH said that.
Now...WHO IS HANG MAN?
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Vacuumboy9
Put the argument to rest based on this speculation? Uh-uh. I want to read this article for myself first. Anybody know where I could find a copy.
And even after I read it, even if Jeph blatantly said in the article, "By the Way, that last couple of pages of TLH are absolute gospel. Gilda did it and that's the truth," I still won't believe it. Because it doesn't make sense.
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Killer Smile
Heh, heh. Old Vacuumboy, the Oliver Stone of Batman stories.
You DO have a point, though...reading the article DOES sound like a good idea! Anybody know which Wizard it's in? I'd love to read it!
Gilda was Holiday.
Now, who is HANG MAN?
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Dan Dreiberg
Is there a chauvinism here in that so many fanboys are unwilling to accept the idea that Gilda commited the first few Holiday killings?
I wonder.
Gilda was Holiday--it makes sense if you read the story, not just look at the pretty pictures.
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Vacuumboy9
I'm a chauvinist? I only read comix for the pictures?
Have you actually READ any of my discussion about how I've analyzed the story and come to this conclusion, or did you just decide to come on here and post insulting comments in an attempt to piss me off?
I think I recall that article from Wizard being a short little half-page thing in the early pages, and I remember it as their interpretation of the events not Jeph's gospel word. But I will try to russle up a copy to find out for sure.
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Dan Dreiberg
Vacuumboy,
I apologize. I did not mean to insult you. I was talking more about the general air of skepticism about Gilda's guilt (say that 3 times fast). I was not calling you a chauvinist; I was wondering if there was a degree of chauvinism to the resistance to the idea that Gilda is a killer.
The "read the book" comment was flip, but I stand by it. Again, not an insult to you personally, but I think the story in whole is pretty clear about Gilda's guilt. That's the big twist and it is the only thing--in my opinion--that gives the story resonance.
Lots of words have been typed by those who see it one way and those who see it the other. But I guess it is like one of those 3-D magic eye pictures; it is hard to explain what you see to someone who can't see it for all the squinting in the world.
Again, my apologies. I am not a "flamer." I have read your arguments, and those of others who question Gilda's role. My response is intended to be provocative and entertaining. If I was insulting you personally, I would do it by name. I was critiquing a mindset, not a person.
So it goes.
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JephLoeb3
Hello, again. Nice to see everyone is having a good time. There has been a LOT of discussion on this point and I only want to make one thing clear --
-- to my memory -- and please, this is only to my memory -- I never said in a Wizard article or anywhere else EXACTLY what happened in TLH.
However, and it's an important however, the answers to all the questions raised ARE in the story. Tim and I didn't just make things up and expect the readers to accept it.
And how do I know this? There have been a lots and lots and lots of posts and letters, and yes, even articles that have explained, point by point who Holiday was and why. We even had a contest and had a winner as explained in the current letters pages.
Now, whether or not it works for you, or whether or not you believe it, is all up for interpretation, but it IS in the story.
And why haven't Tim or I come directly out with a map from point to point? I got into that recently in an extended interview. The jist of it was that we LIKE that there are different interpretations and there is room for doubt. That IS the job of the prosecuter and the defense attorney -- to create plausible explanations for who did what.
Let's use the O.J. Simpson case (which, by the way, was raging while we were working on TLH).
Near as I personally can tell, nobody OTHER than O.J. killed his wife. They never found any other evidence. It ALWAYS bothered me that O.J. never really did anything (other than that stupid 1-900 number) to find another killer -- the cocaine dealers/colombian connection went bust in about three days.
But, O.J. went free. And the only people who really know what happened are the Killer and
the two victims. That's it. In fact, that case should still be open and unsolved.
But, we ALL know O.J. did it!
So... who was Holiday anyway?
Glad you're all enjoying the show and remember to tip your waitress.
Jeph
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Vacuumboy9
Thanks Jeph, I appreciate your post. The essence of which I felt was "Vacuumboy, you might be wrong, but it's your interpretation and that's what counts."
I like that viewpoint. I'm an English teacher so the "it's open to mulitple views and there's no official right or wrong" thing appeals to me.
Thanks for playing OUR game, Jeph. We're certainly having a lot of fun playing YOURS.
----------------
IP: Logged
Dan Dreiberg
I think Jeph is also saying that, like an actual murder in the real world, there is a culprit. There is an irrefutable fact of who Holiday was (singularly or multiply) but it's the individual choice of which evidence you accept or not.
In other words, it may be debatable, but there is an actual answer.
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Carr
"'Blessed are the makers of CHEESE'?
Don't be so literal. He means blessed are the makers of ALL dairy products."
--Life of Brian (though I may be misquoting it).
-----------------
Cord2strike
Poor Gilda.
I just don't think she did it. If we are to believe her "confession" at the end of TLH, that means she is responsible for the first three killings. Johnny Viti - ok, maybe, but the Irish gang? How could she leave the hospital in her condition - take out five guys - and sneak back without anyone noticing? Not to mention, how would she know the Irish were responsible and where to find them? On Christmas, she would have had to follow the Joker immediately after he left the Dents home in order to kill Milos. Why would Harvey allow her to leave in her condition and why not shoot the Joker instead of Milos given the opportunity (after all, he just invaded their home and hurt her beloved Harvey). Also, if Gilda is Holiday, why would she make plans with the Gordons for New Year's Eve. Shouldn't she be out killing?
There is a change on New Year's Eve and it is in Gilda's thinking. From this point on she suspects that her husband is Holiday. By the end of the series Gilda has had a severe breakdown. Her "confession" is her way of dealing with the realization of her husband's transformation. In her mind, Harvey can do no wrong, therefore she thinks of herself as a killer too and that they were doing this together. The irony is that everyone's suspicions about Harvey being Holiday contributed to his change into Two-Face and his Halloween killings which he refers to when saying there were "two" holiday killers.
I think Alberto fits all of the killings perfectly. He is angry at his father and so like any angry child, he rebels by becoming something his father hates - a freak. Because he was born on a holiday, he comes up with the Holiday gimmick. He kills Johnny first because he is jealous of him - the Roman sends for him instead of listening to Alberto. The Irish killing is a power trip. Milos, again, out of jealousy - he is the Roman's "most trusted friend." I think he lets the Joker and Riddler live because they are freaks. "When does a killer not kill?" When he is a victim? (like Alberto, the supposed New Year's victim).
I've tried reading it other ways, but I enjoy TLH most with Alberto as the killer all the way through. Then again, maybe its just those purple glasses.
Thanks, Jeph, for crafting such a rich story with so many possibilities.
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Vacuumboy9
I like the jealousy idea. It makes Milos' murder make a lot more sense. That was the only one I ever had trouble with; all the rest of the killings (including Johnny and the Irish) I could easily attribute to Alberto since they all helped the Falcones, but Milos was always an unanswered wuestion for me. But I like the "motivated by jealousy -why aren't I my father's most trusted friend" theory now.
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Blaquesmith42
I'm very tenacious about going NEAR the Gilda issue in general, but I wanted to comment upon everyone's assertions, Batman's included, the Harvey referred to his Halloween killings when he talked about two Holidays. I think that Batman was wrong on this one, as he was about just about everything Harvey-related in the story. Think: There had ALREADY been a Halloween murder: last year. The cycle was done with. And Harvey didn't leave behind any sort of Holiday token (Unless you count his coin on Vernon's desk, a sign of Harvey's "costume change"... I don't buy that either. I think it's a sign that there's a NEW freak out there, and Holiday's reign is over). So, Gilda or no, I think Harvey was referring to two previous Holiday killers. And check out Calendar Man in DV #1. In Arkham, as Gordon says of Alberto, "This man killed over a dozen people" (probably closer to two dozen, if you count the whole Irish gang, and about a dozen of Maroni's flunkies alone, but still): Julian Day has a very knowing smirk. His "he's" and "she's" might not have been guesses after all.
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muthmaniac
But if you saw the DV#0, issue, Julian apologizes to porter after Alberto apologizes for what he has done. So what if it was Julian and Alberto that were the killers. After all Arkham's records could be changed. Plus, how better to keep the Calendar man from being forgotten, than by taking over Holidays killings. And he just used the he/she references to keep people from anyone thinking he was actually involved.
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Killer Smile
*sigh*
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Vacuumboy9
Found the article Metatron mentioned a while back. It's really just a sidebar at the to of page 35 in issue 77 of Wizard.
Here's the exact text of this thing entitled: "Whut the--?! Wizard answers the Burning question"
"Confused by the ending of B: TLH? You aren;t alone. The climactic 13th issue from writer Jeph and artist Tim finished the year long mystery, but left many scratching their heads.
After a hell of a lot of sleuthing (and tequila shots), WIZARD (caps mine) answers this burning question:
Q: Who was Holiday?
A: There were two, as Harvey said in ish 13.
Holiday 1--Gilda. Dent's wife was the first Holiday-just like she admitted in the last four pages. Her hubby promised they'd spend more time together when he had less work, so Gilda on her own spent three holidays murdering members of mob boss Falcone's gang to help Harvey out.
Her last murder was on Xmas and she gave up the role for 2 reasons-1) Gilda had gotten what she really wanted: a house to raise a family in (and she and Harvey were going to try to have kids again) 2)as of New Year's she mistakenly thought Harvey took up the reins of holiday with news of Holiday's killing of Alberto. But she was wrong...
Holiday 2--Alberto. He faked his own death, becoming the new Holiday. This plot was launched by Alberto and Carmine, who both decided to use the Holiday identity to whack the men of rival Maroni: note the shift in victims from NewYear's forward.
Doesn't make sense? Think about it: Alberto was the Roman's secret weapon from times before the series even began. In public the Roman chided his son when Alberto asked to help him in his business. Yet in his thoughts the Roman would think more than once that Alberto is "the only one i can trust." For a son who wasn't allowed to help, isn't it strange that Alberto was always in those business meeting?"
As for why the Riddler lived on Aprl Fools, the Roman hired him to "solve" the Holiday case and publicize the fact that the Roman was "looking" for Holiday. (Alberto as Holiday "failed" to kill Riddler in the alley--who else but a family member would eben know about such an alley?)
But after Alberto was caught in ish 13he defied his father and took credit for all the murders. ALberto resented 2 things: A) his father always put business before Alberto while growing up and B)now that Alberto was finally involved in the family biz, he was always a behind the scenes guy when he was actually the true brains behind his father's empire. By going public he had become a bigger criminal than the Roman.
But this might all be discussed in the proposed sequel to TLH. Until then happy holidays.
THE WIZARD STAFF(caps mine)"
Those are the exact words of the article (except the two spots where I added caps for emphasis, and when, for time's sake, i typed Harvye instead of DA Harvey (TwoFace) Dent).
Sorry Metatron but this article was more Dogma than gospel (pun definitely intended )
Clearly this article was just the opinion of the Wizard folks, not based on anything Jeph said. (And we all know how well Wizard covers DC stuff, don't we? )
They admit that they could be wrong in the end. They even admit to having imbibed while coming up with these ideas!
I totally disagree with them about Gilda. And some of their logic on the Alberto stuff is a little off too. (Why was it so strange for Alberto to be at those meetings? They were family gatherings!)
Now and forever onward I will view this topic as my 95 theses and continue my role as Martin Luther. (Sorry, the religion metaphor from above is sticking with me.)
Alberto did them all.
If you want to stick with tradition and believe in Gilda that's fine. I promise not to start a holy war.
VB9, devout Albertist
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DeForgeo
Oh fudge. Can we narrow down the Holiday subjects please:
-Gilda
-Alberto
-Two Face
-Julian Day
and, I'd like to add Dr. Evil. If it is Julian Day, take a good look at a pic of Dr. Evil, and Day. I'm not sure if this had been brought up before. However, they do have suttle differences, which leaves me to also bring up the previously mentioned suspect, the Mirror Master :-)
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(Originally posted from Oct. 31, 1999, to Feb. 14, 2000, on the DC Message Boards.)
